[0.00 --> 14.28]  this is jsparty your weekly celebration of javascript and the web check us out on the web
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[23.54 --> 29.72]  the good parts and a request form so you can let us know what you want to hear about on the pod
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[35.80 --> 42.08]  deploy yours in five minutes learn how at fly.io okay hey it's party time y'all
[42.08 --> 58.38]  hello world it's your internet friends
[58.38 --> 62.94]  here with another jsparty nick neesey is in the house what's up nick
[62.94 --> 71.84]  ahoy hoy hoy to you how's life how's everything it's a it's a whirlwind of delight oh i thought
[71.84 --> 77.34]  you're gonna go for ghoulish overkill again like you did last episode but a whirlwind of light
[77.34 --> 84.48]  sounds better than ghoulish overkill chris hiller is also here bone skull how are you doing all right
[84.48 --> 90.66]  hope everybody's having a nice weekday whatever weekday it is well whatever weekday it is where
[90.66 --> 96.30]  you're listening we hope it's good where we are recording it's friday which tends to be of all the
[96.30 --> 103.30]  weekdays one of the best doesn't it definitely top three yes for sure top five i would i would hazard
[103.30 --> 109.40]  to say top three as well well we have a fun docket today we're going to talk some news we're going to
[109.40 --> 117.20]  play a song and we're going to uh discuss node js because that's what we do around here on the
[117.20 --> 126.22]  javascript and web dev party show that you're listening to starting right away with rspac the
[126.22 --> 134.66]  next generation you know star trek was a pretty good show but tng was a great show especially if you
[134.66 --> 139.54]  skip season one and go straight to season two where they really caught their stride and figured
[139.54 --> 145.30]  it out nick response you open your mouth i was i was shocked that you said that and then i i just
[145.30 --> 151.92]  remember trying to start tng and season one like the q episode whatever the first one i fell asleep
[151.92 --> 159.26]  four times it's so bad what podcast am i on right now what what do you guys why star trek the next
[159.26 --> 164.52]  generation does that have to do with anything because i just said we're talking about rspac the next
[164.52 --> 170.66]  generation javascript bundler and i was making a pop culture reference to star trek the next
[170.66 --> 180.40]  generation oh have you seen that show chris yes do you like tng yeah how do you feel about season one
[180.40 --> 186.74]  i don't know the worst season i would hazard even though i don't last time i watched it was when it
[186.74 --> 193.04]  was on tv okay oh wow that's when i watch it too and then i try to go back and i thought as i try to do
[193.04 --> 197.42]  with seinfeld start at season one episode one and it's like yeah you can skip season one of seinfeld
[197.42 --> 201.78]  also you know it takes a little while for these shows to really like find themselves and catch their
[201.78 --> 206.56]  stride and i just feel like as a public service announcement i'm just telling folks skip season
[206.56 --> 212.98]  one start at season two you're going to enjoy that the next generation rspac a javascript bundler
[212.98 --> 217.56]  written in can you guys guess which language this is going to be written in it's a next generation
[217.56 --> 222.14]  ruby ruby that would be last generation that would be the original star trek
[222.14 --> 227.68]  oh i thought it was rspec sorry no rspac s-p-a-c-a that's a good guess though
[227.68 --> 235.18]  um it's not dspace nine it's not voyager it's written in rust come on guys you could have guessed
[235.18 --> 241.46]  that right written one too all next generation javascript build tools are written in rust aren't
[241.46 --> 249.84]  they yeah i mean you you kind of have to it's pretty much what's happening do you though i mean
[249.84 --> 255.28]  i think if you want github stars you absolutely if you want to be next generation you have to
[255.28 --> 263.12]  write it in rust yeah but i guess but aren't things just fast enough no apparently not because the rspac
[263.12 --> 271.16]  team didn't think so they have written this bundler in rust it's compatible with the webpack api
[271.16 --> 277.42]  and ecosystem and it is 10 times faster than webpack
[277.42 --> 286.04]  neither you guys care do you chris is like i haven't used webpack in years i know of webpack
[286.04 --> 293.06]  okay and uh nick's like i just use typescript all the time i just you know i'm excited and i don't
[293.06 --> 299.20]  want to like like it's awesome it's awesome that it's rewritten in that but if we start seeing webpack
[299.20 --> 305.50]  configs pop up again like what is this all for i still have a webpack config i'm excited because
[305.50 --> 310.24]  i still have a webpack config you gotta move to veet baby yeah you're on the veet train i just didn't
[310.24 --> 315.84]  want to rewrite anything like i didn't want to touch my config so i just continue to use webpack and it
[315.84 --> 322.68]  builds everything in about three seconds perhaps but i'm thinking like 300 milliseconds that would be
[322.68 --> 326.72]  10x faster wouldn't it what are you going to do with those 2.7 seconds
[326.72 --> 333.84]  you know how many times that you compile it compounds nick it compounds i mean before long
[333.84 --> 340.42]  it's going to be an entire minute of savings well you know it may not be that exciting to us right but
[340.42 --> 349.52]  there are a ton of people still using webpack which you know i can't i can't speak to how much of a
[349.52 --> 358.00]  drop-in replacement it is i i can't imagine it would maybe it just works but um you know
[358.00 --> 364.20]  certainly if you can speed things up and and you don't have to go in there and change a bunch of
[364.20 --> 369.74]  stuff oh yeah that's great yeah good news yeah that is a good point like i was totally not thinking
[369.74 --> 375.10]  of it from that point i was totally thinking like oh here here comes the return of 400 line config files
[375.10 --> 380.92]  oh you think you think they've gone somewhere no they're still around yeah if you still have those
[380.92 --> 388.40]  around then you just get these benefits for free yeah that's great actually so this is pitched as a
[388.40 --> 394.08]  tool for enterprises and many have been using this so this is built by the
[394.64 --> 403.38]  byte dance team of tiktok fame right isn't byte dance tiktok yes yes and so it's used at tiktok
[403.38 --> 411.14]  it's also used at places like microsoft amazon intuit discord and others so lots of big webpack
[411.14 --> 416.58]  configs probably floating around those organizations and yeah like you said if you can just not have to
[416.58 --> 424.24]  rewrite anything and take your three second compilation down to 300 milliseconds why not but
[424.24 --> 430.90]  even better take your 13 second one down to 1.3 seconds if i'm doing my divisions by 10 accurately
[430.90 --> 438.46]  that's a pretty good win for relatively free right yeah definitely all right well congrats on the
[438.46 --> 445.12]  rspac team for hitting their 1.0 and uh hopefully if you didn't hear about it before and you have a
[445.12 --> 452.64]  big fat slow webpack config in your life you can make it a big fat fast webpack config with rspac
[452.64 --> 465.40]  moving on to our favorite server-side runtime node js have you heard of it yes you have how about
[465.40 --> 471.62]  typescript have you heard of it oh yeah node and typescript are like good friends now they've
[471.62 --> 476.54]  tightened their relationship we talked about it last time nick was all in a in a tizzy about it
[476.54 --> 483.04]  he called an emergency pot over this because node added support for stripping the typescript types
[483.04 --> 488.10]  which means you can write typescript and it will ignore it and just run it like javascript right
[488.10 --> 495.10]  which is a step without a build step and as of node version 22.7 which i think is probably the
[495.10 --> 502.34]  release right after 21 if incrementing things works the way it used to uh there's another new flag
[502.34 --> 510.14]  it's called experimental not strip types transform types and uh what does this do well nobody knows
[510.14 --> 516.48]  no just kidding it's possible now to enable this transformation of typescript only syntax into
[516.48 --> 523.82]  javascript code which allows support for typescript features such as enum or enum if you will and
[523.82 --> 530.70]  namespace so i assume there's something about these nick that they can't get stripped or yeah those are
[530.70 --> 538.54]  to well enum specifically is like the way that it writes it it's creating this like complex looking
[538.54 --> 546.74]  object in typescript okay to emulate that so that you can still have like the the enum like calling
[546.74 --> 553.20]  of that enum everywhere like you know uh direction.north or whatever and it'll be an object called
[553.20 --> 559.22]  direction that has a north property on it that then has a string or whatever value for it this will
[559.22 --> 563.72]  transform it if it works like typescript it'll just transform it into that object which is great
[563.72 --> 567.98]  so it's the kind of thing you couldn't strip because it's useful code like you're going to be
[567.98 --> 572.02]  using that i just want to i'm trying to understand why you transform it instead of just strip it
[572.02 --> 578.12]  because it's not a type it's you know i'm special in that it's not it can't be stripped okay because
[578.12 --> 584.20]  it actually just it compiles down to a javascript object a javascript object i see there's
[584.20 --> 589.60]  constinuum that is stripped what's constinuum do that would like if you had a value it'll just
[589.60 --> 596.96]  replace it at compile time with whatever the value is i see likewise i think namespace is uh
[596.96 --> 606.82]  another i assume they just treat it like an object like a object create null type object and you just
[606.82 --> 612.26]  throw properties in there but that also would need to be compiled down you cannot strip a namespace
[612.26 --> 619.16]  fair so if this was a a two-phase adoption of typescript support phase one would have been
[619.16 --> 624.18]  well let's strip all the types we can just strip and now phase two would be there's a few edge cases
[624.18 --> 629.42]  or things that you can't strip because they have to be actually included in the compiled product and
[629.42 --> 636.88]  so now let's go ahead and add support for transforming them into javascript at build time or at node not not
[636.88 --> 644.72]  build time but node run time and now that's there so no uh no emergency pod for this one but he's
[644.72 --> 651.48]  he's still smiling he's he's still grinning because it further deepens typescript support in node
[651.48 --> 659.68]  however this is a experimental flag which means don't rely on it because it may go away oh
[659.68 --> 667.02]  i thought i just meant it's going to be normal later no that is not what experimental means a lot of
[667.02 --> 675.72]  things most things that are experimental become stable you know right some things go bye-bye so you
[675.72 --> 683.72]  need to be careful if you want to rely on experimental flags i'm also kind of part of team don't ever use
[683.72 --> 689.48]  these features in typescript uh the enum in namespace or yeah okay why is that i don't like
[689.48 --> 697.14]  that enum specifically are they're like opaque right so you have to if i want to use a string value
[697.14 --> 704.40]  a literal like a string literal union is better than me having to also import this object to
[704.40 --> 710.84]  set the the same string value essentially i'm just lazy so you're against enum as a feature
[710.84 --> 717.06]  in general not as a typescript feature as a yeah as like a list of hard-coded strings i would rather
[717.06 --> 722.74]  just have a a list of hard-coded strings yeah i don't think that you get the type benefit any
[722.74 --> 727.62]  additional type benefit from that maybe you get some refactoring benefit but it's not that much
[727.62 --> 733.98]  okay and chris you were in agreement with nick's premise is it for the same reason yeah i mean i don't
[733.98 --> 745.26]  use them i you know if i want to refer to something by a variable name like i will make a an object and
[745.26 --> 753.82]  and call it const and import that and just use the you know food.bar or whatever i want to use
[753.82 --> 761.58]  yeah it and then you know you can extract a type from that easily like type of key of and then there
[761.58 --> 767.70]  you go okay you're all set and namespace similar logic namespace used to be module like that's yeah
[767.70 --> 772.42]  before modules were a thing in javascript it was module and then they renamed it to namespace and
[772.42 --> 780.46]  i i never used it once they're they're basically not needed anymore you know esm and the whole
[780.46 --> 787.90]  module system essentially just it just supersedes it but certainly there's probably some old
[787.90 --> 792.84]  typescript code that's using namespace i think typescript itself used it for a long time
[792.84 --> 798.46]  i think they might have switched away from it but it's it as far as i understand that and
[798.46 --> 804.84]  or maybe enum is regretted like we probably shouldn't have done that but
[804.84 --> 809.94]  you know namespace was kind of well we need something so we're gonna have to do this
[809.94 --> 814.64]  and it's just kind of a vestige at this point gotcha
[814.64 --> 831.20]  okay friends i'm here in the breaks with annie sexton over at fly and you know we use fly here
[831.20 --> 836.46]  at changelow we love fly it is such an awesome platform and we love building on it but for those
[836.46 --> 843.02]  who don't know much about fly what's special about building on fly fly gives you a lot of flexibility
[843.02 --> 849.42]  like a lot of flexibility on multiple fronts and on top of that you get so i've talked a lot about
[849.42 --> 855.64]  the the networking and that's obviously one thing but there's various data stores that we partner with
[855.64 --> 862.08]  that are really easy to use um actually one of my favorite partners is tigris i can't say enough good
[862.08 --> 867.22]  things about them when it comes to object storage i've i never in my life thought i would have so many
[867.22 --> 873.62]  opinions about object storage but i do now tigris is a partner of fly and it's s3 compatible object storage
[873.62 --> 879.94]  that basically seems like it's a cdn but is not it's basically object storage that's globally distributed
[879.94 --> 885.62]  without needing to actually set up a cdn at all it's it's like automatically distributed around the world
[885.62 --> 891.62]  um and it's also incredibly easy to use and set up like creating a bucket is literally one command
[891.62 --> 897.06]  so it's partners like that that i think are this sort of extra icing on top of fly that really
[897.06 --> 902.72]  makes it sort of the platform that has everything that you need so we use tigris here at changelog
[902.72 --> 909.16]  are they built on top of fly is this one of those examples of being able to build on fly yeah so tigris
[909.16 --> 914.20]  is built on top of fly's infrastructure and that's what allows it to be globally distributed i do have a
[914.20 --> 921.06]  video on this but basically the way it works is whenever like let's say a user uploads an asset to
[921.06 --> 926.54]  a particular bucket well that gets uploaded directly to the region closest to the user whereas
[926.54 --> 930.62]  with a cdn there's sort of like a centralized place where assets need to get copied to and then
[930.62 --> 935.02]  eventually they get sort of trickled out to all of the different global locations whereas with tigris
[935.02 --> 939.78]  the moment you upload something it's available in that region instantly and then it's eventually
[939.78 --> 944.74]  cached in all the other regions as well as it's requested in fact with tigris you don't even have to
[944.74 --> 949.90]  select which regions things are stored in you just get these regions for free and then on top of that
[949.90 --> 957.00]  it is so much easier to work with i i feel like the way they manage permissions the way they handle
[957.00 --> 964.16]  bucket creation making things public or private is just so much simpler than other solutions um and the
[964.16 --> 968.02]  good news is that you don't actually need to change your code if you're already using s3 it's s3
[968.02 --> 972.28]  compatible so like whatever sdk you're using is probably just fine and all you got to do is update
[972.28 --> 979.48]  the credentials so it's super easy very cool thanks annie so fly has everything you need over three million
[979.48 --> 985.86]  applications including ours here at changelog multiple applications have launched on fly boosted
[985.86 --> 993.44]  by global anycast load balancing zero configuration private networking hardware isolation instant wire
[993.44 --> 998.90]  guard vpn connections push button deployments that scale to thousands of instances it's all there for
[998.90 --> 1006.00]  you right now deploy your app in five minutes go to fly.io again fly.io
[1006.00 --> 1018.92]  i triple e spectrum which i believe is a website and a used to be a publication it might even still be
[1018.92 --> 1028.88]  kind of a magazine from i triple e a journal a journal if you will yes has published on the 22nd of august
[1028.88 --> 1038.18]  the top programming languages of 2024 and python wins so surprise surprise what's that to do with
[1038.18 --> 1045.08]  jsparty well java second place that's we're halfway there we're halfway to javascript third place
[1045.08 --> 1055.92]  javascript with 0.4451 that would be i guess 44 percent of respondents i suppose i haven't gone deep on
[1055.92 --> 1062.94]  this data set but then what's interesting is c plus plus comes in and forth which fine it's it's just been
[1062.94 --> 1070.56]  there forever and then fifth are you ready for it typescript this is why i pulled this story in because
[1070.56 --> 1076.28]  hey we're getting screwed people we should be higher up the list i mean typescript and javascript
[1076.28 --> 1081.84]  it's all the same thing isn't it nick i was gonna say if you just add those two together then it's like
[1081.84 --> 1089.08]  0.6 something that's what i'm saying we could be we could be number i guess not number one we could
[1089.08 --> 1094.34]  be number two we could beat java which honestly we're beating java aren't we beating java are we
[1094.34 --> 1100.08]  on three billion devices probably i would think so anywhere that java is running there's a web browser
[1100.08 --> 1105.80]  right that's a large assumption that i can't exactly process i'm like is that right i don't know
[1105.80 --> 1112.92]  there's a lot of caveats in there perhaps clicking through this this horrible website i've found the
[1112.92 --> 1119.10]  methodology and it looks kind of skewed towards academia just for what it's worth well it is i
[1119.10 --> 1123.62]  triple e spectrum so that that would make some sense because their audience is more formalized and
[1123.62 --> 1132.62]  academic some major proportion of the the very few sources that they use are in academia so
[1132.62 --> 1140.62]  rounding out the top 10 you have sql not a language it's a language the l stands for language
[1140.62 --> 1148.52]  but is it a programming language is sql turing complete it probably is uh is it a programming
[1148.52 --> 1156.62]  language it's kind of not it's a declarative query language but whatever followed by c sharp go
[1156.62 --> 1166.36]  good old-fashioned c and then hey html baby it's official html is a programming language even the
[1166.36 --> 1175.04]  academics will confess it i won't argue with that i will with sql my wife has to do sql for her job
[1175.04 --> 1181.02]  yeah and i'm always like oh you should learn more programming and she's like no i hate it because i hate
[1181.02 --> 1191.52]  sql i'm like don't base it on sql right have you introduced her to llama 3.1 uh no because i don't
[1191.52 --> 1197.54]  really write sql anymore i write plain english sql that gets turned into actual sql and that's been
[1197.54 --> 1202.14]  pretty nice that's been a life improvement for me i mean that's what llms have done in my life is like
[1202.14 --> 1207.90]  you know copy paste sql you know you don't actually author it directly which has been an improvement
[1207.90 --> 1214.10]  because i use it all the time but just you know is it an inner join is it a left outer join how do i
[1214.10 --> 1220.52]  you know like gosh who has time for that not me but i do have time to say here's what i'm looking at
[1220.52 --> 1224.46]  and then i get a query that's close enough and then you can tweak it from there so maybe she would
[1224.46 --> 1233.84]  benefit from that hey jord are you an elixir guy yes it's 35th ouch well you know that's academia
[1233.84 --> 1239.00]  they don't know what they're doing just kidding it's beaten out by assembly more people writing
[1239.00 --> 1250.48]  raw assembly than they're writing elixir that's kind of embarrassing well i'm sorry oh gosh yeah
[1250.48 --> 1256.76]  well it's not the most popular language but it doesn't make it bad what's abap sounds like a
[1256.76 --> 1263.60]  acronym does anybody know what that means that is what a b a p a b a p i've never heard of that
[1263.60 --> 1268.74]  in my life and i've heard almost every tech acronym there is advanced business application
[1268.74 --> 1278.34]  programming according to claude ah okay this looks like a sap thing oh okay yeah i think this survey
[1278.34 --> 1287.52]  is invalid i think you've proven it i mean you know if people do this for a living then i think it
[1287.52 --> 1296.70]  counts mac helps put food on the table you know i had my first encounter with uh with django a few
[1296.70 --> 1301.54]  months ago oh really which was my first encounter with python for the most part aside from arduino
[1301.54 --> 1308.02]  like simple arduino stuff and i was like trying to get it running and upgrade things and i'm like how
[1308.02 --> 1313.56]  the heck are dependencies managed in this do you know where they put dependencies in python
[1313.56 --> 1321.60]  requirements.txt requirements.txt yes i i felt like i was blown away i'm like you're so disappointed
[1321.60 --> 1328.54]  yeah don't you like text files nick i mean you know json files are just text files with a different
[1328.54 --> 1335.30]  file extension no but my editor knows how to syntax highlighted json file i bet it knows how to do
[1335.30 --> 1341.64]  requirements.txt too not mine okay well you gotta install the python extension or something
[1341.64 --> 1347.26]  the syntax yeah i that i always thought that was uh what's the word i don't know rudimentary or
[1347.26 --> 1353.80]  it's probably from the late 90s yeah oh that's been around forever yeah yeah that's how chris and i
[1353.80 --> 1359.58]  both knew it and and every every year somebody comes up with a new way to do package management
[1359.58 --> 1366.46]  in python yes i've had lots of conversations about package management in python and i've been told by
[1366.46 --> 1371.50]  brett cannon who's the our closest friend who does python he used to be on the steering council or
[1371.50 --> 1377.66]  whatever that pipx is the way to go so after he told me that i just quit wondering what to do and
[1377.66 --> 1382.16]  like i use pipx all the time not because it's best but because brett cannon told me it's the way to go
[1382.16 --> 1388.42]  so that was just good for me wait what's pipx he didn't tell me that part
[1388.42 --> 1398.80]  pipx is a a version a package installer like pip which is the was a python package installer that you
[1398.80 --> 1404.80]  probably know of only it installs everything locally and so it's all siloed and stuff and not
[1404.80 --> 1409.86]  like system wide and so it's a nice way of just like because a lot of times when you're installing
[1409.86 --> 1414.36]  python stuff you're not really writing python i mean i'm not i'm just like i want to use this tool
[1414.36 --> 1418.82]  that happens to be written in python and so i want to install it on my system i don't want to like
[1418.82 --> 1424.50]  screw up whatever apple's doing with python on my system i just feel like if you install it
[1424.50 --> 1429.50]  the pip way you're just like blowing your user local away or you're just like i don't know i'm
[1429.50 --> 1434.90]  gonna break something that apple doesn't want me to break but pipx is like put it all in your own
[1434.90 --> 1439.48]  little i think it's your home directory or something you know let let homebrew deal with it if you just
[1439.48 --> 1444.82]  need to use like a python script a lot of python scripts you can't just brew install if if they're
[1444.82 --> 1451.80]  good you should be able to it's like the brew install python dash whatever it is
[1451.80 --> 1457.10]  brew install python dash no no no no no that's that's the name the name of the package we'll
[1457.10 --> 1463.06]  just start with gotcha i will go on record to say that probably five tools that i've tried to
[1463.06 --> 1468.18]  install this year mostly around trying to use language models and whisper and stuff like this
[1468.18 --> 1474.20]  for transcriptions have not had brew install they've all just been like pip install and i just
[1474.20 --> 1480.00]  i get nervous and i'd like wild west yeah well the python's packaging story has never been solid
[1480.00 --> 1486.52]  hence requirements.txt good language though nick did you enjoy your time with white space significance
[1486.52 --> 1493.48]  why would anybody do that give me those sweet curly braces the sweet embrace it's cleaner dude you just
[1493.48 --> 1497.64]  indent you're gonna indent anyways i know why not just make the indent matter
[1497.64 --> 1504.08]  it's a good question my eyes just don't scan after using curly braces for
[1504.08 --> 1509.94]  every every other year of my life my programming years don't you use tabs though i don't i don't
[1509.94 --> 1515.54]  even know any personally don't you use tabs over spaces whatever prettier changes it too i don't even
[1515.54 --> 1520.38]  care anymore okay well the reason i ask that is because you can make those tabs real big yeah
[1520.38 --> 1526.34]  and that indentation is real significant i actually used to show significant white space like yeah in my
[1526.34 --> 1533.06]  like i'd had invisible characters displayed for tabs and spaces and all that sure and after just like
[1533.06 --> 1537.88]  becoming so comfortable with with prettier just rewriting everything i was like why do i even care
[1537.88 --> 1541.88]  why do i need to see this anymore because if i accidentally type a tab it's going to go away
[1541.88 --> 1550.02]  as soon as i save so sure i think that's fair but not in python not in yaml not in lua etc etc etc
[1550.02 --> 1555.60]  etc lua is a language that i really like that i guess doesn't have curly braces as much
[1555.60 --> 1562.66]  dude lua lua is indexed by one yeah so i have a hard time even just a just even giving it the
[1562.66 --> 1569.94]  time of day but i mean who indexes their arrays by in by one literally just lua when like in in
[1569.94 --> 1576.48]  today's world where i'm not like you're way less inclined in any other language to write a for loop
[1576.48 --> 1582.34]  i i would say would you agree uh in what language no in any language to write a for loop
[1582.34 --> 1588.08]  wouldn't you use like a for each method or a some other iterator method or or have you ever
[1588.08 --> 1593.66]  written go it's all for loops goes entirely for loops they have no other iteration techniques
[1593.66 --> 1595.14]  that's why i haven't written go
[1595.14 --> 1603.98]  i use for loops in elixir there's also there's all kinds of iterators but every once in a while like
[1603.98 --> 1608.26]  the for loop is actually pretty functional but you don't actually have index references there either
[1608.26 --> 1612.54]  so you can if you want them yeah but it's a different kind of for loop it's not like a
[1612.54 --> 1618.50]  zero index for loop c c plus plus i mean come on man aren't you polyglot you ever writing anything
[1618.50 --> 1626.22]  besides typescript i'm writing php now but my point is zero indexed yeah but my point is i don't care
[1626.22 --> 1630.92]  about the zero index i never am like you don't do for loops trying to get at the zeroth index i'll get
[1630.92 --> 1637.22]  i'll like push or pop or what is it unshift or like you use some method to get at it
[1637.22 --> 1643.16]  unshift isn't that destructive yes no don't ever do that dude you're gonna totally regret that move
[1643.16 --> 1650.88]  immutable mutations no i'm kidding i'm kidding immutability please i don't want to mutate my
[1650.88 --> 1655.12]  that was my problem with ruby is there are so many different ways to mutate the current thing that i
[1655.12 --> 1660.30]  i did it on accident a bunch you know and i'm like oh crap just just monkey patch a new way to do it and
[1660.30 --> 1666.04]  then exactly ruby is the best programming language if you don't need to show this code to anybody
[1666.04 --> 1671.68]  because you can just monkey patch like the core objects and have all very nice utilities for
[1671.68 --> 1675.28]  yourself and like just don't ever share that because no one's gonna know how it's working but
[1675.28 --> 1682.26]  it's very malleable and makes writing like stuff very enjoyable as long as it's not to be
[1682.26 --> 1687.98]  collaborated on everything's just in method missing right well you can definitely do that too yeah i think
[1687.98 --> 1694.40]  nick is right about lua at least i i've written a fair amount of lua and have never worried about that
[1694.40 --> 1700.06]  like i don't worry about the index about the one index no no you never for you never do a for loop
[1700.06 --> 1705.48]  and then you had to start with one no i don't use a for loop they have like okay some i can't think of
[1705.48 --> 1710.78]  the syntax off the top of my head but like there's there's some method or some like language construct
[1710.78 --> 1717.44]  to just like loop through everything without me having to explicitly get access to the nth index of
[1717.44 --> 1723.92]  the object or of the table to to get at something like it'll just give me you know an iterator to to
[1723.92 --> 1729.58]  go through it so you're saying it's inconsequential yes and i'm saying why they do it then what's the
[1729.58 --> 1736.10]  point like why don't you just conform to the other languages man that's that's true i guess i'm actually
[1736.10 --> 1740.28]  i mean i've i've heard great things about lua never written any lua i just like to make fun of it
[1740.28 --> 1746.48]  because of that but it's a came over to it because of neo vim and i like i really like it for that and
[1746.48 --> 1751.50]  now i use it for a bunch of other things i started is it just is it configuring neo vim or is it like
[1751.50 --> 1758.16]  extending it configuring it yep so you probably don't do very much looping there anyways i do
[1758.16 --> 1763.54]  actually like what would you loop over in your config i have like oh all your plugins
[1763.54 --> 1771.46]  yeah for each plugin i would install it but then it's like looping through things like uh
[1771.46 --> 1777.06]  looping through like the set of language servers that i want to set up and doing specific things
[1777.06 --> 1781.62]  for specific ones or you know things like that so it's like an array and the array is only just
[1781.62 --> 1785.66]  typescript and it just loops over it it's like sets up the typescript server and you're done pretty
[1785.66 --> 1793.34]  much pretty much all right fair enough moving on now that we've covered languages that aren't web
[1793.34 --> 1797.88]  development languages although i'm sure you can run all those language in a web browser
[1797.88 --> 1804.36]  via wasm or some other technique transpilation of course we don't have to do that we have pretty
[1804.36 --> 1809.28]  good languages in our browsers now actually i was i was trying to remember but that lua stuff and
[1809.28 --> 1817.24]  then i remembered oh i stopped using lua because i kind of hated it and what i what i ended up doing
[1817.24 --> 1823.32]  instead was using this thing called moon script which is like coffee script for lua oh wow
[1823.32 --> 1828.72]  yeah so you're drinking it yeah you're putting some uh moon script additional stuff in your lua
[1828.72 --> 1833.90]  moon script huh moon script and you hated moon script or you hated lua so you went for moon script
[1833.90 --> 1839.92]  i didn't like lua it's a little too uh i don't know they they they don't use like many sigils
[1839.92 --> 1847.58]  you know what i mean they don't use like curlies or braces so much it's uh it can be kind of verbose
[1847.58 --> 1854.44]  i got type sick of typing function essentially the word function the word function and so moon
[1854.44 --> 1859.30]  script stops that from happening moon script i still write out the word function when i'm writing
[1859.30 --> 1866.28]  javascript my mouth is agape right now it is agape for our listeners it's just you know i'm old and
[1866.28 --> 1871.42]  i've been writing function for 20 years i'm just gonna keep writing it now there are times where i need
[1871.42 --> 1877.20]  the facilities of the fat arrow and so i'll use that function style like the closures and stuff but
[1877.20 --> 1884.98]  i just write function so in lua it looks like four key uh comma value in something or other and that's
[1884.98 --> 1890.54]  your that's your iterator four key comma value and that key starts with one yeah well it's a
[1890.54 --> 1895.28]  you're you're in for a hash you don't need to use it's all tables it's all yeah it's all tables
[1895.28 --> 1903.72]  okay it's the holy sas ben i'm looking at this moon script and you really this is way more
[1903.72 --> 1908.82]  significant white space you must like significant white space chris but it has it has like arrow
[1908.82 --> 1915.44]  functions so i was like more comfortable what were you writing this for oh god satisfactory plugins
[1915.44 --> 1923.36]  what's satisfactory plugins are like good enough like mods like it's like plugins for a satisfactory mod
[1923.36 --> 1930.44]  written in their lua but i use moon script anyway but and i've written stuff for like compute
[1930.44 --> 1934.78]  computer do you know what satisfactory is and i'm ignorant or are we both in the dark here
[1934.78 --> 1941.22]  what's satisfactory chris satisfactory is a factory building game um like factorio and you automate
[1941.22 --> 1948.14]  things but there are there's a modding scene of course and it gets all sure complex if you like
[1948.14 --> 1952.28]  that sort of thing yeah lua really has its niche in like game embeddable game
[1952.28 --> 1959.12]  yeah i've written lua stuff for computer craft or open computers and minecraft as well
[1959.12 --> 1965.34]  minecraft scripting api nowadays javascript baby it's all javascript i know that because i i just
[1965.34 --> 1969.84]  interviewed the it's both written in javascript and you can use javascript of course there's other
[1969.84 --> 1977.44]  languages as well wait what the mine script the minecraft api the scripting api mine script
[1977.44 --> 1981.86]  minecraft you know the game minecraft is that what you said minecraft that's what i was talking about
[1981.86 --> 1988.00]  minecraft it's all javascript now what are you talking about minecraft the scripting api okay
[1988.00 --> 1996.68]  minecraft is written in java and it's also rewritten in c plus plus right 100 the minecraft scripting
[1996.68 --> 2002.32]  api like all the modding stuff that you can do inside of minecraft is javascript oh right i just
[2002.32 --> 2007.10]  interviewed the two guys that run the show over there oh yeah yeah yeah and you can use javascript
[2007.10 --> 2013.96]  it's not no you can use javascript to write mine script minecraft mods but some people do some people
[2013.96 --> 2019.64]  don't 100 i'm just saying you don't need to use lua anymore or or moon script well you do if you want
[2019.64 --> 2027.86]  to write programs for computer craft i'm talking about minecraft computer craft is a minecraft mod
[2027.86 --> 2034.56]  written in i don't care because it doesn't matter to me but it it provides like an operating system
[2034.56 --> 2042.18]  and all the code you write is lua okay that's what that's the kind of minecraft scripting you like to
[2042.18 --> 2047.90]  do is computer craft so is this a is this you install minecraft and then you mod it with computer
[2047.90 --> 2053.58]  craft and then you mod computer craft with lua yes okay but to solve all of your problems there is a
[2053.58 --> 2064.82]  typescript to lua compiler bam nick wins again and maybe somebody's written some lua for computer
[2064.82 --> 2070.50]  craft that transpire like you can write javascript to write computer craft code i'd probably somebody
[2070.50 --> 2077.16]  has done this if a typescript to lua converter exists then then certainly it's possible and and i
[2077.16 --> 2082.08]  didn't know that and so now i'm going to go back to my moon script and rewrite it in typescript bam i
[2082.08 --> 2086.06]  support this so nick really just made your days i mean this made it all worthwhile for you to show
[2086.06 --> 2093.96]  up for this particular show because now you can just ditch moon script forever i feel like everybody's
[2093.96 --> 2100.78]  ditched moon script i've never heard of moon script but i'm looking at the syntax and i like
[2100.78 --> 2105.10]  significant white space this looks like a nice little language you would yeah it's just kind of
[2105.10 --> 2110.44]  like coffee script yeah and i liked coffee script as well i thought it was very energizing
[2110.44 --> 2134.98]  okay party people this one's for you i've got just 30 seconds to tell you about wix studio the
[2134.98 --> 2143.44]  web platform for freelancers agencies and enterprises so here are a few things you can do in 30 seconds or
[2143.44 --> 2152.44]  less on studio number one integrate extend and write custom scripts in a vs code based ide to leverage zero
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[2159.78 --> 2166.40]  with wix headless apis on any tech stack wix studio is for devs who build websites sell apps go headless
[2166.40 --> 2173.16]  or manage clients well my time is up but the list keeps going on step into wix studio and see for yourself
[2173.16 --> 2178.24]  go to wix.com studio once again wix.com studio
[2178.24 --> 2190.50]  okay let's talk more node chris you had thoughts on all right nodes test runner please open up this conversation
[2190.50 --> 2199.20]  so that's that's when this was announced i was like this is a bad idea because what's the idea the idea of node
[2199.20 --> 2208.40]  putting a test runner in itself uh i having experience uh maintaining a test runner there's all these edge cases
[2208.40 --> 2215.38]  and terrible things and it's it's not it's not the easiest egg to crack right and so i was kind of concerned
[2215.38 --> 2221.86]  about the the maintenance burden but and i don't know if that's ever going to be a problem or not
[2221.86 --> 2229.68]  um certainly the the people who know what those edge cases are if it's going to be anybody it's going
[2229.68 --> 2234.80]  to be those who work on node core and so i think they're well suited to handling some of those things
[2234.80 --> 2244.76]  but i picked it up recently and to to write some tests instead of mocha and um i was i was happy with
[2244.76 --> 2253.14]  it it's um you know it's not so restrictive in that you you with some test runners they don't give
[2253.14 --> 2259.26]  you test suites you you only get tests and they they don't give you they discourage hooks or whatever
[2259.26 --> 2265.06]  and but you get all that stuff in in nodes test runner and that was really all i needed and so um
[2265.06 --> 2272.28]  yeah it works great works great with uh i i haven't tried the new typescript stripping thing
[2272.28 --> 2280.84]  with it but like if if you use something like tsx no problem you can combine it with a like c8 or
[2280.84 --> 2285.04]  something to get your coverage you know much like mocha it doesn't have a lot of bells and whistles
[2285.04 --> 2294.92]  however node i think 20 20 or 22 i think i think it arrived in 18 i may be wrong anyway one of the it
[2294.92 --> 2301.70]  was either 20 or 22 added some mocks and spies and stuff there's like a mocking api now and that works
[2301.70 --> 2306.90]  pretty well and that was one of the things that was kind of missing and so wait yeah i'm happy with
[2306.90 --> 2312.86]  that that's just like in node native wow yeah yeah there's like a whole mocking api now does it work
[2312.86 --> 2320.40]  with esm in like being able to mock like like other modules like that was one thing that that node that
[2320.40 --> 2325.90]  i was wondering like you know it's been so long i'm trying to like remember but there was do you know
[2325.90 --> 2332.88]  what i'm gonna say no okay but it's it's actually pretty easy to do that nowadays um you can you can
[2332.88 --> 2342.38]  register a a loader on the fly and have it do those things okay so there it's it's a it's a different
[2342.38 --> 2350.34]  separate system but yeah you can do that sort of thing i haven't needed to yet and i can report back
[2350.34 --> 2356.46]  uh if i ever do which i'm sure i will eventually but yeah the mocking mocking stuff works great
[2356.46 --> 2363.08]  assert is still assert which is not super but you know there are other assertion libraries out there
[2363.08 --> 2370.04]  too and yeah i'm pleased with it i'm happy it's there um you know the more adoption it gets the more
[2370.04 --> 2376.04]  terrible things that people are going to try to do with it and so who knows who knows if that's going
[2376.04 --> 2382.10]  to become an issue later but for now i'm really happy with it works great and kudos to colin and
[2382.10 --> 2389.72]  the rest who have been working on i think uh rafael or something too but um yeah happy with that
[2389.72 --> 2397.14]  nodes test runner cool related discussion that we got cable's opinion on recently and i love your
[2397.14 --> 2403.94]  opinion chris kind of going up a level what belongs in node and what doesn't like what is your particular
[2403.94 --> 2412.28]  opinion on shoving a bunch of stuff into node versus keeping that relatively slim and allowing
[2412.28 --> 2417.42]  third-party developers to innovate etc like do you have a strong opinions one or the other on
[2417.42 --> 2424.30]  where things belong inside of something like node i know what goes too far like the python standard
[2424.30 --> 2431.44]  library had something like an itunes module built into it and that goes too far right yeah but i'm not
[2431.44 --> 2438.20]  i'm not like a a small core advocate necessarily i'm i'm an advocate for whatever you know people
[2438.20 --> 2444.00]  commonly do that it would be it would make sense to do out of the box and um you know over the past
[2444.00 --> 2452.44]  couple years i think the that sentiment is kind of become more popular and we've seen additions of
[2452.44 --> 2460.10]  things that you know the team five years ago wouldn't have considered adding right and so i'm i'm happy with
[2460.10 --> 2465.40]  the direction and yeah i think it's uh i think it's good i think there's you know there's globbing
[2465.40 --> 2472.12]  in the core now so yeah you know so the stuff like that gotta have globbing i say that seriously
[2472.12 --> 2477.54]  yeah i'm generally the same like i haven't been i probably been tracking nodes progress more in the
[2477.54 --> 2484.26]  last two years than ever in my life and generally like almost all the decisions i see them making i'm like
[2484.26 --> 2489.64]  yeah good decision like i feel like they're making sound choices and i feel like it's really
[2489.64 --> 2498.30]  like steady progress over the last 18-24 months so i tend to agree with you yeah and you know and
[2498.30 --> 2505.68]  maybe some of that has to do with competition from from dino and bun but regardless uh you know
[2505.68 --> 2511.86]  they're doing a good job yeah by the way dino too right around the corner and ryan doll right around
[2511.86 --> 2517.52]  the corner on js party as well we'll be getting them back on around the launch of dino 2 which i
[2517.52 --> 2524.48]  think is september late september anyways let's close up unless nick did you have anything to say
[2524.48 --> 2529.06]  about node test runner or anything that chris just said so this was written from scratch i'm just
[2529.06 --> 2534.84]  curious like you know you have you have experience with uh mocha obviously like would there ever been
[2534.84 --> 2540.54]  precedent to just like slurp up something like mocha and make it a first class thing no it was i mean it
[2540.54 --> 2549.06]  was from scratch and i i think uh nothing uh really fulfilled the requirements i think that that
[2549.06 --> 2557.78]  they wanted um it was either like too much or not enough or or it was mocha was too much or it was
[2557.78 --> 2566.74]  janky uh so you know too janky yeah so you know it makes sense to it would not make sense to pull a
[2566.74 --> 2573.46]  mocha into core now because yeah you don't want to do that but there are you know it wouldn't
[2573.46 --> 2578.92]  necessarily make sense to pull i don't know most most of the test runners nowadays are gonna have
[2578.92 --> 2585.00]  all those bells and whistles and out of the box and and no test trigger doesn't have those things and
[2585.00 --> 2592.68]  similarly to mocha um but uh yeah so yeah they did write it i i don't think i don't think anything
[2592.68 --> 2598.94]  out there was suitable to pull in just speaking from speculation my opinion yeah sure that's awesome
[2598.94 --> 2603.92]  like like you said things like this you know what especially when i want to do like something quick
[2603.92 --> 2609.80]  and one-off having to like i don't know there's just like a mental barrier to having to add something
[2609.80 --> 2614.92]  else and then configure that and then go whereas like if it's just built in it's like oh there's no
[2614.92 --> 2621.40]  barrier i can just write my tests in this case or glob i can glob without having to jump through a bunch
[2621.40 --> 2628.84]  of hoops for that that's really no config file no config file that's nice very very nice well let's
[2628.84 --> 2636.86]  finish up this episode on a musical note one thing i've always loved is the cross-section of software
[2636.86 --> 2645.60]  development and culture whether it's music movies video games art we featured all kinds of things over
[2645.60 --> 2654.84]  the years on our shows maybe you recall nested loops a javascript band from back in the day that
[2654.84 --> 2661.36]  would rap over js generated beats and we had them on the show and featured some of their music of course
[2661.36 --> 2669.48]  i've done features of standard out the rapper who's a software development rapper uh probably the only one
[2669.48 --> 2677.76]  on earth who has some actually really good music and most recently i found out about the tc39 song
[2677.76 --> 2684.76]  this comes by way of bruce lawson who works at the vivaldi browser which chris you're rocking vivaldi
[2684.76 --> 2691.22]  today huh yeah are you a fan of this browser yes good good browser what do you like about it it has
[2691.22 --> 2698.92]  some fancy things and it it's not like it doesn't slurp data like chrome and yeah yeah i like it
[2698.92 --> 2704.82]  very cool so you have bone skulls endorsement of vivaldi bruce works there and he recently traveled to
[2704.82 --> 2712.80]  amsterdam earlier this summer to help mcjs nation conference out there and uh he says on his blog
[2712.80 --> 2720.40]  naturally the open ceremony required a js pop group which is a sub-genre of k-pop which is a sub-genre
[2720.40 --> 2727.04]  of pop and uh they did a apparently a carefully choreographed dance routine and they lip synced
[2727.04 --> 2732.14]  the song and he's got some pictures on his blog post which we'll link up as well but they have an
[2732.14 --> 2740.72]  original song uh that he wrote can we hear the song yes is that too much setup for you yes gosh
[2740.72 --> 2745.84]  you're curmudgeon all right here's the song by bruce lawson tc39 song chris
[2745.84 --> 2760.92]  i get so excited writing javascript i'm pretty easy going but now i use strict
[2760.92 --> 2768.60]  when i first began i was in callback hell then i met you and now it all goes well
[2768.60 --> 2777.74]  i love you when my tests pass meet me in the moonlight and extend my class you always keep
[2777.74 --> 2784.76]  your promises from the start now you've shot your bat arrow straight to my heart
[2784.76 --> 2794.98]  oh tc39 i'm so glad you're mine say you will be with me till the end of time oh tc39
[2794.98 --> 2800.78]  you're so sublime your specs are the best my tc39
[2800.78 --> 2809.42]  all right so shout out to bruce there you have it check out vivaldi check out brucelawson.co.uk
[2809.42 --> 2816.90]  we'll link it up and uh let him know if you like the tc39 song all right that is our show for today
[2816.90 --> 2820.22]  any final words chris no nick
[2820.22 --> 2828.80]  i feel like this is becoming a new routine you do i'm not sure if we need to form yeah put you on
[2828.80 --> 2834.06]  the spot and then you crumble that's kind of our thing recently it's very easy yeah it's easy for
[2834.06 --> 2840.64]  you it's easy for me as well all right thanks for hanging out on behalf of nick nisi and christopher
[2840.64 --> 2847.34]  bone skull hitler and jsparty i'm jared and we will talk to you all next week
[2847.34 --> 2871.06]  thanks for listening to jsparty we love that you choose to spend time with us each week if you want
[2871.06 --> 2877.10]  some free stickers now's your time to act during the month of september i'm trading change logs sticker
[2877.10 --> 2884.64]  packs for thoughtful five-star reviews or blog posts about the pod write something nice screenshot it
[2884.64 --> 2892.16]  or it didn't happen and send it to jared at changelog.com that's j-e-r-o-d at changelog.com
[2892.16 --> 2898.56]  with your mailing address what are you waiting for an engraved invitation next up on the pod cable and
[2898.56 --> 2904.90]  myself sit down with chris shank to explore how tools can help us learn create and think better
[2904.90 --> 2912.34]  stay tuned for that but first another thank you to our sponsors wix and fly.io to our beat freak
[2912.34 --> 2918.58]  in residence breakmaster cylinder and to sentry use code changelog for 100 bucks off the team plan
[2918.58 --> 2924.66]  on sign up that is all for now but come back and party with us again next week
[2924.66 --> 2934.66]  game on
[2934.66 --> 2934.70]  game on