[0.00 --> 14.22] you're listening to jsparty a weekly celebration of javascript and the web find us on the web [14.22 --> 22.20] at jsparty.fm on the fediverse at jsparty at changelog.social and of course wherever you get [22.20 --> 28.62] your podcasts just search for jsparty you'll find us thanks to our partners at fly launch your app [28.62 --> 37.28] near your users for peak performance fly makes it easy learn more at fly.io okay hey it's party time [37.28 --> 48.30] y'all what's up friends and party people i'm talking to you today about our friends over at [48.30 --> 55.72] clerk the complete suite of embeddable uis the full-on most comprehensive user management platform [55.72 --> 63.60] if you're using react or next js clerk is perfect for you embeddable uis flexible apis and admin [63.60 --> 70.30] dashboards to authenticate and manage your users and i'm here with clerk ceo colin sidoti colin give me [70.30 --> 75.62] the backstory why does clerk exist when we started clerk we were definitely frustrated that a lot of [75.62 --> 83.42] the authentication solutions both services or open source kind of didn't have a good ui built in and [83.42 --> 88.72] we would look at google's sign-in experience and google's user profile and it just had this like [88.72 --> 95.38] degree of polish and professionalism to it it just didn't come out of the box with everything else [95.38 --> 101.70] usually you start with just email password as the sign-in options and then you kind of have to add in [101.70 --> 109.90] extra modules to get all off on and you know in the user profile having a profile picture and [109.90 --> 114.76] setting up to a bay right it's like like all this extra work that you have to do and with clerk i [114.76 --> 121.76] think we really were inspired by stripe checkout where here's a checkout and it's great right like [121.76 --> 126.80] and we had this question of like why like why didn't that exist for auth really and so for clerk [126.80 --> 132.50] you drop in our components and it's really just a complete like end-to-end experience right out of [132.50 --> 137.80] the box with that high degree of polish high degree of professionalism that i think users have really [137.80 --> 143.64] come to expect these days okay so easy to drop in components really beautiful ui by the way i love [143.64 --> 150.50] it very nice clerk must be the most welcomed easy button when it comes to authentication good ui and [150.50 --> 155.80] all that right one of the most striking things you know still to this day i think clerk might be the [155.80 --> 161.78] only auth solution that comes with a user profile screen and it's so insane to think about because you [161.78 --> 166.12] need the user profile screen because that's where the user goes and they self-serve to set up to a bay [166.12 --> 171.96] and it ties back into the sign-in and so it's like we had to do that to be able to offer that [171.96 --> 178.18] experience but it's so bizarre to us auth depends so much on user profile yet most auth solutions don't [178.18 --> 183.72] include it and it's just this weird bizarre thing that never made sense to us and so approaching it [183.72 --> 190.44] from first principles we have it out of the box very cool so pixel perfect uis embedded in minutes [190.44 --> 197.74] react or next gs this is the easy button for you clerk is perfect for you it is a full-on comprehensive [197.74 --> 204.26] user management platform with as i said beautiful ui best of all they have pricing that scales with you [204.26 --> 212.46] they have a phenomenal free tier 10 000 monthly active users for free plus when you scale to a paid [212.46 --> 217.64] plan they have first day free this means you won't be charged for users who sign up and never return [217.64 --> 230.24] so that's phenomenal every feature you need now and as you scale get started at clerk.com at c-l-e-r-k.com once again clerk.com [247.64 --> 262.20] hello world it's your internet friends jared and k-ball just the two of us k-ball how you doing i'm doing [262.20 --> 267.06] all right not that often i get to spend this much quality time with you that's true just the two of [267.06 --> 272.12] us here what do you want to do just two of us well of course when it's the two of us we're gonna have [272.12 --> 277.88] break down javascript news right like that's what we do when we have our intimate time that is what [277.88 --> 282.88] we do in our free time when it's just the two of us zero typescript news today so you'll be happy [282.88 --> 292.08] to hear as our typescript aficionado is not here just me and you and we're talking html first so [292.08 --> 300.00] html first and first up on the docket it's another state of survey which we've covered from time to time [300.00 --> 303.22] this won't be the deep dive that we've done in the past where we spent an entire episode [303.22 --> 311.32] reviewing the state of but this is a state of html not state of javascript not state of css i believe [311.32 --> 316.76] there's a css one that we've done state of html you know you gotta give some html some love it is the [316.76 --> 322.64] bedrock of everything that the web is is it not i mean we gotta give it some love yeah absolutely i mean [322.64 --> 326.10] at the end of the day no matter how much javascript we put out there if the html isn't there [326.10 --> 331.96] what are they gonna do it's just a blank page so what is the state of html of course this is the [331.96 --> 337.48] annual survey i believe this is the second time they have done this one put on by our friend sasha [337.48 --> 344.24] grief and leah veru who's been on the pod a couple of times finding out what folks are using what [344.24 --> 349.22] they're not using and the full results we won't go through today you can check out the website which [349.22 --> 354.40] is linked up in the show notes but just a few items that i thought were of interest first of all [354.40 --> 361.42] under features being used there are questions around tooling which always piques my interest [361.42 --> 367.56] specifically site generators was highlighted which of these static or dynamic site generators do you [367.56 --> 373.60] regularly use cable did you look at the results or can i can i close you okay you know what the [373.60 --> 379.92] results are well i don't think anybody is surprised that next js dominates with almost 40 percent of [379.92 --> 386.70] respondents using this one regularly no surprise there necessarily i think what's more interesting [386.70 --> 393.48] honestly is if we so there's a set of these on here so there's next there's nuxt there's gatsby [393.48 --> 400.00] there's svelte kit these are all application frameworks right more than static site generators i think [400.00 --> 407.66] if we peel those away and look at what else is on there astro is kind of in the middle in a very fun way [407.66 --> 415.54] and they're doing great but astro eleventy jekyll and hugo all on there are more classic generators [415.54 --> 423.50] right exactly and you know it's neat to see jekyll right there's still a ruby generator right seven [423.50 --> 430.74] percent uh almost a thousand people so let me break it down one through eight here uh next js first with [430.74 --> 439.46] 39 astro second with 18 nuxt with 12 gatsby at 10 eleventy coming in at eight percent jekyll like [439.46 --> 445.84] you mentioned seven and then hugo coming in six percent so a decent chunk of people are still using [445.84 --> 453.94] non-js static generators so both hugo which is in go and jekyll which is the og i think well it [453.94 --> 459.70] definitely popularized this category it's not the original static site generator but very popular [459.70 --> 467.62] because a little bit of history here tom preston warner of a co-founder of github wrote jekyll it [467.62 --> 474.56] was one of the first big open source ruby projects on github and he also wrote a very famous blog post [474.56 --> 482.18] called i believe i'm going from memory blogging like a hacker in which he made it cool to blog this style [482.18 --> 487.84] and jekyll just skyrocketed from there and became kind of the de facto for many years [487.84 --> 494.76] eventually being replaced by other tools but still out there yeah i mean i think this idea that markup [494.76 --> 500.76] is all you need for blogging for site generation for things like that it's really nice and it's clean [500.76 --> 506.62] and it maybe gets us out of the cycle of every developer who wants to blog and says oh but first i [506.62 --> 510.88] need to build a website for my blog like just use one of these frameworks write your blog and mark down [510.88 --> 516.66] and you're done right and there's also this situation that happened more in the past than it [516.66 --> 522.14] does now probably because of static generators but also because of the proliferation now of easy [522.14 --> 529.78] free hosting plans is that we had this thing called the slash dot effect which eventually became the dig [529.78 --> 535.68] effect right and then it became the hacker news or the reddit effect as different social aggregators [535.68 --> 540.46] kind of replaced each other but this was a situation where you would have a dynamically rendered [540.46 --> 545.64] web blog you know and every time and you wouldn't do anything you like it's wordpress or it's [545.64 --> 550.38] type machine what was the other one that was popular back in the day i don't know there's another [550.38 --> 554.60] one that was not wordpress but was very similar and so far as if you don't have caching turned on [554.60 --> 559.32] every time you get a server request you're just rendering that whole page over and over again [559.32 --> 566.04] which is totally fine until a popular until you get on slash dot or whatever until you're on slash dot [566.04 --> 570.46] and they send a bunch of traffic your way and then all of a sudden your website is down and that [570.46 --> 573.80] happened to a lot of hackers because we're not used to people reading our blogs you know [573.80 --> 581.94] we we we write in obscurity and then every once in a while a big you know personality or a slash dot or [581.94 --> 587.40] a dig would suddenly send a wave of traffic to your blog and at the one point when you want people to [587.40 --> 592.80] be able to read your site because they're interested you lose a bunch of opportunities one of the points [592.80 --> 597.32] that tom made in that blogging like a hacker which spoke and resonated with so many of us is like [597.32 --> 603.92] it's just html there's no website is down there's no rendering right it's pre-rendered and so you're [603.92 --> 608.72] never going to get slash dotted you're never going to get dig effect and that's why a lot of people i [608.72 --> 615.80] think were were into it back then it was like the original piece of let's actually send things close [615.80 --> 619.96] to the client let's have something where people can load something useful without having to touch our [619.96 --> 625.20] database right and so yeah they're still out there just probably because of good old-fashioned [625.20 --> 631.44] momentum but yeah a few of these would of course be offended if you called them site generators because [631.44 --> 637.86] they do so much more other ones gladly take the moniker i do think astro is kind of the interesting [637.86 --> 643.90] hybrid hybrid there because they have this very text-centered approach that was deliberate as a part of [643.90 --> 648.52] their philosophy i think we interviewed was it fred about that um just like kind of going into [648.52 --> 656.50] what they do and why but they also extend very smoothly into either full-on applications or [656.50 --> 663.20] little mini applets that are embedded as widgets in your site yeah almost their own category which is [663.20 --> 671.18] very cool and of course uh shout out to eleventy a long-time friend and uh guest of the show zach [671.18 --> 676.38] leatherman's little framework that could i mean they just had eleventy conf which was cool i'm not sure [676.38 --> 681.14] that's what it was called but it was an online only virtual event that zach put on and it seemed like [681.14 --> 687.34] it went really well so a lot of buzz and just love going on in the eleventy community which i want to [687.34 --> 693.60] share with folks definitely a cool project let's move on quickly now to ai tools uh which of these ai [693.60 --> 700.22] tools you regularly use to help you write code not exactly html focused question but still no surprises [700.22 --> 708.84] here most people chat gpt over half 52 got 34 using copilot and then just pulling up the rear [708.84 --> 713.98] google bard which i believe has been renamed already so i'm not sure when this yeah i don't think bard [713.98 --> 718.78] exists anymore and i yeah they renamed it gemini and i'm not sure if it still does code or i'm sure [718.78 --> 724.66] it does code but it does yeah i'm surprised to not see claude on here because and a few people i know [724.66 --> 729.74] who do this are like oh yeah claude is better for this type of stuff then yeah my guess is that the [729.74 --> 734.74] actual surveys were done a while back and this is such a fast moving thing that probably not even [734.74 --> 739.32] worth tracking without some sort of context of like there's brand new stuff all the time [739.32 --> 749.24] in fact gpt4o just came out supposed to be better so far i've used it for a day or so it feels pretty much [749.24 --> 754.74] the same to me but you know people are very impressed on social media last one here this is [754.74 --> 760.34] fun but hold on possibly most interesting on this is if we should play out the numbers a little bit [760.34 --> 767.18] how many people say they are not using an ai tool at all for code generation it's just 38 percent of [767.18 --> 774.54] respondents true so that inverting that means 62 percent of developers at least answering the survey [774.54 --> 779.22] are using some sort of ai code uh tool to help them code are you still writing code i can't [779.22 --> 784.50] remember occasionally yeah no i just get chat gpt to write it for me yeah i was gonna say you're [784.50 --> 789.96] managing chat gpt now no i i do write code occasionally i was debugging a tricky javascript bug yesterday [789.96 --> 797.36] nice those are always fun oh yes are any of the details interesting or no only only to rant about [797.36 --> 805.26] did you black out is it gone now no so it was dealing with react and an infinite scrolling component [805.26 --> 811.34] and the challenge was and a pet peeve i have about javascript which is javascript has all these array [811.34 --> 817.26] methods some of which that present sort of a functional interface right and some of them do [817.26 --> 822.16] sort of the natural functional thing of essentially create a copy that they're returning to you of the [822.16 --> 828.06] mutated data and some of them actually mutate in place and it turns out if you do dot reverse on a [828.06 --> 832.58] javascript array it mutates it in place and if that is state that you are getting from a hook somewhere [832.58 --> 838.02] and causes your react component to re-render every time you do it you can get up in a very nasty loop [838.02 --> 846.86] yeah so be cautious yeah ruby's the same way these languages that have you know some mutate some don't [846.86 --> 853.70] and i just am i appreciate like purely immutable languages for that reason because you never get [853.70 --> 860.58] bit by that particular inconsistency well did you use uh chat gpt to figure it out i did not [860.58 --> 867.08] nice all it's all kball baby just gave it all kball gpt here we go there you go so i uh recently [867.08 --> 873.94] wrote a little node server which is effectively puppeteer as a service just for our own dynamic [873.94 --> 879.24] share images you know it just takes the html and just renders it throws it on the s3 bucket or [879.24 --> 884.32] whatever and it's just a little puppeteer thing and i had not written like a node server for probably [884.32 --> 888.90] a decade honestly because i just don't write in back end i write elixir in front of my use javascript so [888.90 --> 895.98] but this was like i want to use puppeteer why go try to shove puppeteer somehow into elixir land [895.98 --> 901.34] which there aren't very many great tools or go with chromium direct anyways i was just like just use [901.34 --> 908.78] javascript man just and so i wrote a node server it's probably a hundred ish lines of code over a few [908.78 --> 914.70] hours and node's really nice now i mean we're gonna talk about a new release of node but like [914.70 --> 919.86] i thoroughly enjoyed it async awaits all good you know like you can set it in es modules mode [919.86 --> 926.96] all good uh chat gpt is really good at writing a few functions for me so i just you know i just like [926.96 --> 934.28] ah modern node well and that type of thing where you have a single purpose yeah small standalone thing [934.28 --> 941.12] is actually where these ai based code generators shine they're really good at one-offs um and generating [941.12 --> 946.60] those things and where they struggle a little bit more is when you're trying to sort of modify a big [946.60 --> 950.82] system and kind of dealing with lots and lots of different contexts they can do some things in there [950.82 --> 955.10] but they also fall on their face more often but that type of like here's an established piece of [955.10 --> 960.14] technology it's been around a while so it's in the training corpus i want to write a one per [960.14 --> 965.92] single purpose server like dang these tools are really good at that yeah absolutely all right now let's [965.92 --> 970.42] move on to a blast from the past this was a fun question have you ever used any of the following [970.42 --> 978.44] old school elements so these are now long since obsolete but still out there apparently these are [978.44 --> 986.56] html elements center marquee font frame set and frame blink of which the blink engine was named after [986.56 --> 995.22] applet plain text which i didn't even know about plain text is index and next id center being the most used [995.22 --> 1000.50] because hey in anger right we're just like maybe if i just wrap it in a center tag this thing will [1000.50 --> 1009.74] center uh 50 of people have used center that responded of course and then marquee uh 45 font 40 and so on [1009.74 --> 1016.48] i was curious with uk ball have you used any of these in the last uh five years five years maybe frame [1016.48 --> 1022.78] set and frame no that was more than five years ago no i don't think so yeah i don't think i have either [1022.78 --> 1028.34] maybe just marquee one time for fun like for nostalgic purposes but um i would fall into category [1028.34 --> 1034.20] 10 33 percent of respondents have used none of the above but half of the people that took this have used [1034.20 --> 1039.50] the center element i guess reason enough that they would say yes to that question so that's kind of [1039.50 --> 1046.16] crazy to me but okay center it up is center still relevant for html emails i feel like that might be one [1046.16 --> 1052.24] place where so for our email i can only speak to my experience is that everything's basically just [1052.24 --> 1057.94] tables and rows in order to get to a certain like center and then you just write your content inside [1057.94 --> 1063.84] of that table and so that's what we use but maybe center works there as well i don't know possibly [1063.84 --> 1070.12] there is a new website you know can i use dot com how about can i email dot com have you heard of this [1070.12 --> 1077.38] it's necessary because html email technology stuck in the 90s it's so bad it's so hard i i still get [1077.38 --> 1083.14] with changelog news i still get emails a lot of people are like this doesn't look right mostly it's [1083.14 --> 1092.66] like do you use mjml no just just good old-fashioned html and tables i isn't mjml going to be react [1092.66 --> 1099.64] mjml is conceptually it's a pre-processing or template language i know i looked at it like [1099.64 --> 1104.80] version of it but it you know you can use it you could actually try to embed it in line but i would [1104.80 --> 1109.20] even more just use it to generate your html templates that you then use in your app right [1109.20 --> 1115.10] manually yeah ours was like i when i did this new iteration it was basically like just cargo culting [1115.10 --> 1119.90] what we did previously for changelog weekly which looked very similar but quite a little bit different [1119.90 --> 1125.50] you know and so i didn't i did look at mjml i remember thinking oh is it react and i was like yeah i'm [1125.50 --> 1129.82] just gonna do my own thing you know kind of stodgy but yeah i've heard good things about that [1129.82 --> 1138.34] anyways can i email.com definitely uh would promote the use of that for anybody in the unenviable [1138.34 --> 1145.20] position of having to craft their web pages for email clients which is even harder than the battle [1145.20 --> 1151.76] days of non-interoperability amongst browser engines all right let's move on uh definitely check [1151.76 --> 1159.04] out state of html.com for more there's a lot of good stuff on interoperability limited functionality [1159.04 --> 1165.18] what people will really want it sounds like people really want better forms better input support more [1165.18 --> 1171.28] widgets uh tabs they want we just want more widgets inside of our browsers versus having to reinvent [1171.28 --> 1178.10] the wheel over and over again we would love those things to be html native and maybe with this data [1178.10 --> 1195.84] someday they will be what's up friends this episode is brought to you by our friends at neon [1195.84 --> 1201.60] manage serverless postgres is exciting we're excited we think it's the future and i'm here with nikita [1201.60 --> 1208.08] shamganoff co-founder and ceo of neon so nikita what is it like to be building the future well i have [1208.08 --> 1213.74] a flurry of feelings about it coming from the fact that i have been at it for a while there's more [1213.74 --> 1221.10] confidence in terms of what the north star is and there is a lot more excitement because i truly [1221.10 --> 1226.60] believe that this is what's going to be the future and that future needs to be built and it's very [1226.60 --> 1232.94] exciting to build the future and i think this is an opportunity for for this moment in time we have [1232.94 --> 1238.86] just the technology for it and the urgency is required to be able to seize on that opportunity [1238.86 --> 1246.40] so we're obviously pretty excited about neon and postgres and manage postgres and serverless postgres and [1246.40 --> 1251.62] data branching and all the fun stuff and it's it's one thing to be building for the future and it's another [1251.62 --> 1255.52] to actually have the response from the community what's what's been going on what's what's the reaction [1255.52 --> 1263.72] like we are lately onboarding close to 2500 databases a day that's more than one database a minute of [1263.72 --> 1270.14] somebody in the world coming to neon either directly or through the help of our partners and they're able [1270.14 --> 1275.40] to experience what it feels like to program against database that looks like a url and the program [1275.40 --> 1280.50] against database that can support branching and be like a good buddy for you in the in the software [1280.50 --> 1286.70] development life cycle so that's exciting and while that's that's exciting the urgency at neon is [1286.70 --> 1292.50] currently is unparalleled there you go if you want to experience the future go to neon.tech on demand [1292.50 --> 1297.92] scalability bottomless storage database branching everything you want for the postgres of the future [1297.92 --> 1300.50] once again neon.tech [1300.50 --> 1329.42] what's up next on the docket looks like node 22 do that one next yeah let's do it speaking of node [1329.42 --> 1336.96] being nice these days yeah node 22 now available this was released april 24th so about a month back [1336.96 --> 1346.42] big release lots of notable changes uh specifically requiring es modules they got a built-in web socket [1346.42 --> 1353.62] client and now v8's been updated quite a bit uh what was interesting to you from this release anything [1353.62 --> 1360.06] yeah so i think the the requiring of es modules is a nice step forward it doesn't still doesn't work [1360.06 --> 1364.78] for every es module because you still have this like kind of awkwardness around synchronous versus [1364.78 --> 1369.36] asynchronous if it has a top level of weight i think it throws an exception or something like that [1369.36 --> 1378.00] but it is a step towards kind of finally having universal access to es modules without special [1378.00 --> 1384.40] configuration i think it's node basically throwing in the towel of saying yeah we know this is an ugly [1384.40 --> 1390.98] solution and it has drawbacks but people want es modules so let's do that so i think that's good [1390.98 --> 1395.32] i think it's still experimental i think it's not fully there but it's a step in the right direction [1395.32 --> 1401.80] having the web socket client just built in by default good stuff yeah good stuff one thing that stood out to [1401.80 --> 1409.76] me that i think was actually introduced in node 20 it's still experimental but it's improving is this [1409.76 --> 1415.28] idea of process-based permissions which i think was one of the big things that dino originally pushed [1415.28 --> 1421.42] forward as like you can enable which permissions are allowed for a process right and i love to see node [1421.42 --> 1426.10] pulling that back in or taking that inspiration and making it happen in node land because that is a [1426.10 --> 1433.42] huge huge security improvement to be able to say you know what there's no reason this process [1433.42 --> 1439.24] should be accessing my file system like just let it go yeah that's really cool and then the rest of the [1439.24 --> 1446.46] major wins it seems like was just by bringing v8 somewhat up to date 12.4 of course v8 has a bunch [1446.46 --> 1452.56] of stuff built into it and so you get the freebies by node running off a newer version of v8 looks like [1452.56 --> 1459.58] they got a web assembly garbage collection in their array from async so additional array methods set [1459.58 --> 1467.54] methods like all the goodies and that really is what is nice about writing node side javascript is [1467.54 --> 1473.38] like you're not dealing with like lowest common denominator functionality you don't have to go to [1473.38 --> 1478.18] can i use because like the answer is yes you can pretty much right if node does it you can do it [1478.18 --> 1488.22] and uh it really is a reason to enjoy some back-end javascript so check it out node 22 moving on to [1488.22 --> 1494.06] react react is still going they're still the gorilla they still are and they have a couple things going [1494.06 --> 1499.38] on that were notable uh one that just dropped yesterday and i know that nick was very excited [1499.38 --> 1503.80] about because he put it in our chat and said let's do a show so maybe a full show coming soon [1503.80 --> 1511.40] about this is the react compiler which is open source this is a new experimental compiler [1511.40 --> 1517.70] that the react team has open source to get early feedback from the community what does it do it's a [1517.70 --> 1523.98] build time only tool that automatically optimizes your react app it works with plain javascript and [1523.98 --> 1530.30] understands the rules of react so you don't need to rewrite any code to use it i mean free code [1530.30 --> 1537.40] optimizations why not right it's hilarious because it's another step uh one is community inspired i [1537.40 --> 1543.62] think again right they're looking at the things that you have us felt doing a you know the things [1543.62 --> 1548.56] that angular is able to do owning the whole ecosystem that you know things that quick is doing [1548.56 --> 1555.28] where they're saying hey we can make things faster by default because we run this build time compile [1555.28 --> 1560.24] step that can make all these optimizations and react is saying wait wait us too we could do that [1560.24 --> 1565.96] too so i think there's there's something really interesting and powerful there i do think it is [1565.96 --> 1571.88] also a reaction to the fact that it's the core of react it's really easy to write non-performant code [1571.88 --> 1579.28] and it's gotten very hard and labor intensive to keep react performant as your app scales and this is saying [1579.28 --> 1584.84] okay maybe what we can do is we can figure out tooling around that that that reduces some of that [1584.84 --> 1592.68] developer load you do still have to follow certain rules so it's it's kind of like in in frameworks like [1592.68 --> 1597.94] quick or something like that it won't work at all if you don't follow those rules right in react [1597.94 --> 1604.58] it'll probably work in some ways it just won't be fast or effective so this is saying okay you follow [1604.58 --> 1610.98] the rules you can get some automatic speed improvements yeah i wonder how easy it'll be to run like [1610.98 --> 1615.72] benchmarks without it and then just use it and then benchmarks with it and see if you get the [1615.72 --> 1622.34] wins to make it worth it to integrate it into what you're up to i don't know if it's planned to be run [1622.34 --> 1628.88] i'm not sure exactly like is this like part of your build step every time you compile your build your [1628.88 --> 1633.46] program to be launched or is it going to be like you run it once and it tells you how to rewrite stuff [1633.46 --> 1638.84] too i mean it says automatic but my impression was it was part of your build step which does then [1638.84 --> 1644.84] introduce some interesting questions around differences between development environment and [1644.84 --> 1651.62] prod or stage yes because notably this is written in rust this is not written it with node or with [1651.62 --> 1657.82] javascript tooling and so now are we going to ship another dependency perhaps or are we going to have [1657.82 --> 1663.32] a universal binary does rust do universal binaries i don't know um like go does so that you could just [1663.32 --> 1668.62] ship it like alongside the rest of the tool chain i don't know i think it's it's going to have to get [1668.62 --> 1675.50] built for your machine so that the react team might build a whole bunch of different distributions of [1675.50 --> 1679.72] this so you don't have to compile it yourself you just download the one that matches your architecture [1679.72 --> 1685.20] i don't know i mean i would assume it's like any sort of node based natural language extension it gets [1685.20 --> 1691.22] built at install time so you build it you install with node and it does it compile all very new all very [1691.22 --> 1697.68] experimental things to ask the team but out there in open source already so facebook github [1697.68 --> 1702.92] slash react slash compiler like it's in the compiler folder inside of the react proper they also have a [1702.92 --> 1709.66] blog post out maybe this isn't a blog post this is like in there learn the new react docs that talks [1709.66 --> 1714.88] about it and it says should i try out the compiler it says you do you don't have to rush into using the [1714.88 --> 1718.72] compiler now it's okay to wait until it reaches a stable release before adopting it so it's really [1718.72 --> 1722.72] exciting it's the community's up in arms about not up in arms that's a bad thing [1722.72 --> 1728.24] up in excitement about it but it's very much like the folks who are building and getting involved [1728.24 --> 1734.70] and probably early adopters trying it right now early days but stay tuned for perhaps an episode [1734.70 --> 1741.38] from us with some of the react team we know that joe savona was involved and he's been on the show [1741.38 --> 1746.50] before so probably can get joe back on to talk about what they're up to with that that's cool and then [1746.50 --> 1755.78] of course the much anticipated much awaited react 19 in beta as of april 25th perhaps you know perhaps [1755.78 --> 1760.96] you've heard perhaps you're running the beta i don't know if you like to live that close to the [1760.96 --> 1768.12] edge or not but first release in a long time it's still not released released but it's out there what's [1768.12 --> 1773.70] all in react 19 givall so there's some pretty interesting things i think one of the big headline [1773.70 --> 1778.52] pieces is okay react server components are actually production ready they're no longer experimental [1778.52 --> 1783.80] they're there they're a baked in part of it i think you know that's a that's a big step that's [1783.80 --> 1788.52] probably why it's taken so long but also we've all been sort of adapting to what are these things for a [1788.52 --> 1793.64] long time it's just kind of pushing that one step further another couple things i thought were [1793.64 --> 1802.70] interesting one is they introduced this new concept of actions and transitions which as far as i could [1802.70 --> 1808.70] understand it reading it i have not tried playing with it yet is kind of trying to absorb some [1808.70 --> 1814.30] classic patterns around how you handle state transitions between okay i'd made a change i send [1814.30 --> 1819.58] an api request i get something back i update a place like all those different things right now you have [1819.58 --> 1824.28] to there's a lot of like patterns you put in place to manage that smoothly and make sure it handles things [1824.28 --> 1829.26] like errors and optimistic updates and things like that and react is saying oh this is a common problem [1829.26 --> 1834.64] that everybody has let us absorb some of those patterns into the core framework and make it easy [1834.64 --> 1840.42] to use um one particular example that i thought was really nice is they have a new hook called use [1840.42 --> 1846.44] optimistic which essentially is like all right you're doing an update back to the server with this value [1846.44 --> 1852.74] let's optimistically update the ui to that value and have react put that in place but then automatically [1852.74 --> 1857.82] handle when the value comes back from the server or if there's an error or something like that to update it [1857.82 --> 1864.04] based on that like that's a really nice to smooth experience something that previously you either have [1864.04 --> 1870.32] to handle yourself or not handle and have either a slow ui or something that could get out of sync [1870.32 --> 1878.68] right loading spinner yeah so that's really nice they also introduced this new use method that as from [1878.68 --> 1883.64] what i can tell is basically it's a similar type of thing but it's trying to make the user experience [1883.64 --> 1889.76] or the sorry the developer experience around suspend a lot nicer so suspend has dealing with suspend [1889.76 --> 1894.38] and it's throwing promises and all of that has always been a little bit of a tricky developer [1894.38 --> 1900.40] experience and with this you basically can use a set of promises and then once this then suspend is [1900.40 --> 1904.92] off and doing something and when suspend comes back it automatically updates that in whatever your [1904.92 --> 1910.98] component is yeah a lot of a lot of kind of nice absorption of patterns around how to deal with [1910.98 --> 1918.06] asynchronicity and things that that people have been having to do by hand yeah i love optimistic uis i [1918.06 --> 1923.18] think it's definitely the way to go nine times out of ten everything's hunky dory right so why don't you [1923.18 --> 1928.96] just go ahead and update the ui assume if it was good and then have some sort of a reaction to a failure [1928.96 --> 1936.68] as the corner or edge case that it typically is but traditionally that's kind of a pain in the butt to [1936.68 --> 1942.02] code that up i mean it's just not as straightforward as just waiting for the response and then handling [1942.02 --> 1950.26] it from there so any tooling that allows more people to do optimistic uis i think is a big win [1950.26 --> 1957.28] so this use optimistic to me is pretty cool all right so react server components production ready [1957.28 --> 1964.62] we have actions and transitions which are kind of intimately linked in my mind according to what i read [1964.62 --> 1972.36] where it's basically an action is more of an idiom it seems than an actual formalized piece of the [1972.36 --> 1977.82] code base because they say by convention functions that use async transitions are called actions so [1977.82 --> 1983.16] they're just kind of calling certain functions actions and hoping that catches on i don't know [1983.16 --> 1987.56] am i understanding that correctly i think they're basically pulling these were things that were [1987.56 --> 1992.94] encapsulated in state management tools um right if you look at like a redux or things like that like [1992.94 --> 1998.90] action meant something there that is very similar to what this is and they're saying oh we're [1998.90 --> 2003.48] discovering that more and more especially now that we have context we have all these other tools for [2003.48 --> 2009.14] managing state directly in react people aren't using these heavy tools but then they're missing some of [2009.14 --> 2015.34] the functionality and niceties around that and so let's start building that into react so i think [2015.34 --> 2023.00] that concept of here's a straight state transition that triggers an asynchronous thing to happen that [2023.00 --> 2026.92] already existed that was a part of state management tools and react is saying we're gonna we're gonna [2026.92 --> 2031.58] have some developer experience around that just in court react very cool so do you know how long these [2031.58 --> 2039.44] betas tend to run before you actually get a finalized release it's a good question i don't actually [2039.44 --> 2045.32] know they look on their blog they don't call it beta one so i think they're assuming this is the only one [2045.32 --> 2049.80] so some projects will have like beta one beta two and then like a release candidate you know [2049.80 --> 2056.78] um i'm not sure how react does theirs but are we assuming this is going to be soon i mean it's been a month [2056.78 --> 2065.82] almost since the beta came out it's not clear to me yeah so just stay tuned i think the question i guess [2065.82 --> 2074.20] would be for your typical shop is react 19 actually ready to give it a shot yet or is it like because [2074.20 --> 2078.58] i remember back in the old days of ruby on rails for instance they would have a beta one a beta two [2078.58 --> 2082.46] a beta three however many betas they needed and then they'd have a release candidate one release [2082.46 --> 2087.30] candidate two and as a guy who was just trying to run some websites on rails but didn't want to fall [2087.30 --> 2092.52] behind i was like yeah i'm gonna wait you know until release candidate one because by then it's like [2092.52 --> 2097.64] this is pretty solid like barely anything will change between now and the big release and so i [2097.64 --> 2102.18] kind of had an idea of what that actually meant but if there's just one beta and then who knows and then [2102.18 --> 2108.26] it's going to release you wonder if the beta is baked enough for your common people to try it or if [2108.26 --> 2113.80] it's just like it says beta but you know gmail wasn't beta for like 12 years so yeah what does beta [2113.80 --> 2123.44] even mean anymore i don't see let's see it's on npm um i was trying to look in their github repo for [2123.44 --> 2132.16] if they have historical beta releases and see what was going on there and i didn't see it but they [2132.16 --> 2137.78] the beta isn't even on github right now so now i'm looking to see if it's on so i'm thinking that [2137.78 --> 2145.48] that's pretty not big so on their react 19 beta upgrade guide one of the notes at the top says [2145.48 --> 2152.64] this beta release is for libraries to prepare for react 19 app developers should upgrade to 18.3 [2152.64 --> 2159.34] and wait for react 19 stable so i think if you're just an app developer even though the beta has been [2159.34 --> 2164.56] out for a month i would probably just sit tight unless you have a small code base you can try it [2164.56 --> 2169.40] real quick and see if anything broke but if you have like a significant app i don't think i would [2169.40 --> 2173.52] be hopping on this beta train because they say it's for libraries it's not really for regular devs yet [2173.52 --> 2183.18] yeah yeah it's not clear for 18.0 that looks like they did do a beta but it that's so long ago it's [2183.18 --> 2187.98] hard to read oh and then they in that one they went through alphas it was months and months and months [2187.98 --> 2193.44] i would i would not anticipate this is ready to go i think it'll be a while all right so there you have [2193.44 --> 2199.82] it there's our advice from two people who've been burned plenty of times to know better but still [2199.82 --> 2204.28] kind of want to check it out so we're like well should i go play with it on a side project yeah [2204.28 --> 2210.56] exactly start not production ready don't put it on your your money making endeavors at this point [2210.56 --> 2219.94] all right next up we got volt volt from some of our friends volt vlt.sh from some familiar [2219.94 --> 2225.60] faces and names maybe you remember darcy clark who's been on js party a handful of times talking [2225.60 --> 2233.38] security they are trying to build the future of javascript packages that's what the home page says [2233.38 --> 2241.36] uh what is this all about cable that is a great question i was trying to dig in and understand what [2241.36 --> 2249.30] it is so you've got a founding team which includes both the original creator of npm and a couple of [2249.30 --> 2257.00] folks who were in npm from early on have also done stuff in github things like that you have a website [2257.00 --> 2264.34] that is basically just sign up for news but also has this blog post their first blog post is aiming at [2264.34 --> 2271.26] essentially supply chain security right looking at oh there is this massive baked in vulnerability [2271.26 --> 2278.22] in how npm works and it leads to all these supply security right challenges and then if you look at [2278.22 --> 2285.28] their investor list they list out who all their investors are it includes two uh js party folks [2285.28 --> 2290.86] that we know amel is an investor uh for ross is an investor they're both called out by name there [2290.86 --> 2300.28] so are people like uh guillermo roche however you pronounce his name um evan you and i saw also a [2300.28 --> 2306.16] former vp of snick or sneak however you pronounce that so all of these signs like particularly you [2306.16 --> 2311.04] have ferocin there you have somebody from sneak in there as investor and you have this initial blog [2311.04 --> 2318.02] post about supply chain security i think what they're going to be trying to do is a new package [2318.02 --> 2324.42] management ecosystem that is secure by default that cuts off a lot of the like right now we have a [2324.42 --> 2331.34] whack-a-mole problem in npm package security there's all sorts of people attacking it from different ways [2331.34 --> 2336.92] but fundamentally there are vulnerabilities in the way that packages are managed in the javascript world [2336.92 --> 2343.58] and you can do either automated or manual reviews and all sorts of things to try to manage that and but [2343.58 --> 2347.94] my guess is this is trying to attack that core problem and build something that's going to be [2347.94 --> 2353.64] secure and verifiable by default so you all may remember the episode the massive bug at the heart [2353.64 --> 2360.06] of the npm ecosystem that was the first blog post uh by volt and i think darcy talked a little bit and [2360.06 --> 2366.14] he was very vague when he was on the show talking about what he was up to but he did mention that isaac [2366.14 --> 2373.10] schluter the original npm creator was with him and he has since recently in march announced like [2373.10 --> 2379.86] this funding round that cable is referring to and just still vague but interesting because mostly [2379.86 --> 2387.30] because of i guess the pedigree of the people who are either invested or on darcy's team it looks like [2387.30 --> 2394.98] these folks are serious js community people with some money behind them from very smart people i even [2394.98 --> 2402.70] see david kramer from sentry on the list i see michael jackson from remix uh investing as well so [2402.70 --> 2409.94] i'm curious what they come out with that being said i mean you do have ryan doll and the dino team [2409.94 --> 2415.60] coming out with their thing already in production the jsr registry so are we going to see now you know [2415.60 --> 2421.12] some competing at the registry layer beyond even what you see right now it seems like probably we're going [2421.12 --> 2427.60] to definitely feels like it's heading in that direction and i i think it's it's kind of a reaction [2427.60 --> 2435.18] to this sort of escalating number of supply chain security vulnerabilities that people have run into [2435.18 --> 2442.84] and a realization as people were digging into it that it is essentially unsolvable with the current [2442.84 --> 2448.58] systems and so now people are saying okay it's unsolvable we're trying to keep the lights on and [2448.58 --> 2453.76] patch things as we go but we got to attack the heart of the problem i think it's kind of cool that we [2453.76 --> 2459.72] have at least we assume what volt is building based on what they've said so far and who they are we have [2459.72 --> 2466.30] registries or package let's just call them packaging solutions uh coming out from the creator of node [2466.30 --> 2473.06] and then the creator of npm you know it's like decades later and it's like round two baby let's see what [2473.06 --> 2481.12] happens yeah well and it is it is interesting to realize i mean i think we look at react react the changes [2481.12 --> 2487.70] like that it's like the types of changes you'd expect in a very mature ecosystem of like okay we're [2487.70 --> 2493.62] absorbing these patterns from the community we're handling these things and then you have people [2493.62 --> 2501.62] saying you know what we have the foundations wrong let's reassess that and relook it it leads me to [2501.62 --> 2509.66] believe that there's still a long runway for innovation in the javascript community amen to that that's [2509.66 --> 2518.68] exciting times for sure so one more bit of i guess news i don't know what you call it i didn't put it [2518.68 --> 2524.12] in the doc cable so i'm gonna slap you with this one is the gulp developer survey we talked about the [2524.12 --> 2531.10] state of html and we talked about blasts from the past i mean i hadn't heard the term gulp except for [2531.10 --> 2538.96] in dumb and dumber when he says hey guys oh big gulps huh all right well see you later for years [2538.96 --> 2544.84] and yet uh here they come gulp has gone nowhere they had a recent release and they're actually [2544.84 --> 2551.46] introducing their own gulp developer survey did you use gulp first of all tell tell our young [2551.46 --> 2557.30] listener what gulp is and then we can talk about whether or not we used it oh man okay so gulp is [2557.30 --> 2563.42] fundamentally a javascript task runner back in the day before we had good build tools it got used as [2563.42 --> 2571.62] a de facto build system and at some point the ecosystem said hey you know what task runners don't [2571.62 --> 2576.68] actually make great build systems they're optimized for different things and so we had a variety of [2576.68 --> 2582.18] different dimensions um i think the first one was actually as so often as this case ember had this [2582.18 --> 2587.14] like build dedicated system i believe it was called broccoli or something like that something that went in [2587.14 --> 2591.38] that direction and then webpack said oh okay we're gonna get in the game and they started winning [2591.38 --> 2596.36] everything and most recently you have veet saying let's go back to basics build on top of es modules [2596.36 --> 2601.80] which to be fair we're not there back when these original build systems were working but let's build on [2601.80 --> 2607.82] top of this let's make things faster and so the kind of build ecosystem has evolved tremendously [2607.82 --> 2614.00] beyond what gulp or another task runner could do well let me mention the other big task runner [2614.00 --> 2620.96] which you're going to remember grunt grunt yes oh that was actually another big thing so those two [2620.96 --> 2626.86] fundamentally they had a philosophical difference so grunt was file-based would read everything you [2626.86 --> 2630.16] know read your stuff in from a file right out to a file and then the next whatever the next task [2630.16 --> 2635.38] would read in from files right out to files that obviously gates you performance wise on the [2635.38 --> 2640.38] performance of your file system gulp used a streaming approach you'd essentially stream tasks input to [2640.38 --> 2644.66] output input to output kind of go there which allowed it to be much faster on another set of [2644.66 --> 2652.64] dimensions now i too had not seen gulp in a long time part of that was my main exposure to gulp was [2652.64 --> 2659.60] through build systems however while build systems are not perhaps the best application of task [2659.60 --> 2664.22] record runners or a more dedicated system is actually better than a task runner there are tons of different [2664.22 --> 2671.24] things that do fit into a task runner paradigm and so it's not that surprising to me that gulp optimized [2671.24 --> 2675.74] for task runners still exists and i was looking at still getting like over a million downloads a week or [2675.74 --> 2682.88] something like that from npm it's still moderately widely used which is interesting and they are [2682.88 --> 2688.52] currently running a survey we invite you to help us explore the needs of the gulp community above and [2688.52 --> 2693.90] beyond the issues on github by completing the gulp developer survey before may 31st so as you listen to this [2693.90 --> 2700.16] you still have a few days to get it done if you are a gulp user please do the survey is anonymous and [2700.16 --> 2705.76] they just want to find out how people are using it and what they want from it so they can make it [2705.76 --> 2710.50] better i think as you get to a certain scale even a project like this which is they said a decade old [2710.50 --> 2715.30] you don't know exactly it's being used so much you don't know exactly how people are using it i remember [2715.30 --> 2721.46] we asked daniel stenberg from the curl project years ago now famously we asked him how he knows [2721.46 --> 2728.88] you know how people are using curl and he's like i have no idea like now he is he since developed [2728.88 --> 2735.08] like similar things that he can have a feedback loop from his users but he also had so many users [2735.08 --> 2739.12] using it in so many different ways that it was like how do you even wrangle that community anyways [2739.12 --> 2743.80] a lot of times you're not sure how people are using it and all you responding to is the [2743.80 --> 2749.96] squeakiest wheels who are using it inside your github issues right to support their to report their [2749.96 --> 2755.34] bugs and their feature requests and all these things and the squeaky wheels are awesome in a [2755.34 --> 2763.24] sense but they're also louder noises than necessarily represent your user base and so you can you can [2763.24 --> 2768.02] overcompensate for power users which i think happens a lot and it's hard not to well and sometimes those [2768.02 --> 2772.24] squeaky wheels are the people trying to use it for something it's not actually good at good point you [2772.24 --> 2777.68] have a large number of people using it for the things that it's good at and being very quiet but if you [2777.68 --> 2781.78] don't understand that that's what they're using it for you might not realize there's an opportunity to [2781.78 --> 2787.96] develop it even further in that direction yeah that's a really good point because oftentimes when [2787.96 --> 2792.94] we're trying to use something that it's not exactly developed for that's when we hit up against so many [2792.94 --> 2798.58] corners edges and limitations and so then we are the ones who are reporting these limitations [2798.58 --> 2803.58] and if you listen too much to those i've seen it happen you can really take a project in a direction [2803.58 --> 2810.60] that nobody except for a few really wanted to go in and it takes i think you know a certain level of [2810.60 --> 2817.08] experience and i guess confidence to say that's a really cool idea please do fork it you know take it [2817.08 --> 2823.44] over there and build that thing but that's not what this tool necessarily is and so you need to hear from [2823.44 --> 2828.54] not just those people even though they are often your best contributors and stuff but you need to hear from [2828.54 --> 2832.90] everybody and so that's what they're trying to do i mean i didn't even know gulp was still in active [2832.90 --> 2836.76] development so for me this is cool just to learn about that it's still out there doing its thing [2836.76 --> 2843.38] well and i think this is an example of a common problem for us right we see the hot shiny new stuff [2843.38 --> 2848.32] because that's what's making news and that's what people are exciting about but boring technology [2848.32 --> 2854.68] lasts a long time how many sites are still built on wordpress how many sites are still using jquery [2854.68 --> 2861.62] all those different things right like it's fun and exciting to be in the hot new world and when [2861.62 --> 2866.04] you're doing greenfields projects you probably want to start in the hot new world because there are [2866.04 --> 2871.42] benefits there's reasons why people are evolving in that direction however when you're not doing [2871.42 --> 2878.92] greenfields work if it ain't broke don't fix it yeah call back to our episode recently my interview [2878.92 --> 2885.96] with kelvin omerishone from the boring javascript stack i mean he's out there promoting sales js [2885.96 --> 2895.44] s-a-i-l-s not trying to sell js uh which is a server-side kind of rails alike in javascript from [2895.44 --> 2901.78] 2012 2011 that's when it started and it's still just doing its thing and there's still people that are [2901.78 --> 2908.38] building new websites with it and like a whole little ecosystem of boring technology that's like [2908.38 --> 2913.70] building businesses that i hadn't known about until kevin made me aware of it and so cool stuff [2913.70 --> 2918.34] he he was so excited about the most boring things it was hilarious he's like i'm here to get you [2918.34 --> 2925.16] excited about boring tech well and it you know if you are interested in entrepreneurship and business [2925.16 --> 2934.00] a lot of times the problem you're solving is only sort of a technical problem yeah and you have a set of [2934.00 --> 2938.26] risks that you're taking on by trying to start a new business or a new product or a new feature line [2938.26 --> 2944.34] and if you can avoid having technology be one of your risks by using something that is boring but [2944.34 --> 2949.28] tried and true and just works out of the box and all of the error cases are already handled and all [2949.28 --> 2956.24] of the rough edges have been sandpapered down and it is easy to use and easy to adopt to adopt like [2956.24 --> 2961.52] that's one more risk you don't have to worry about absolutely so what are some examples of boring [2961.52 --> 2968.76] technology that folks could look at i would say postgres or my sequel right like boring relational [2968.76 --> 2975.84] databases relational databases um monolith application frameworks you know django laravel [2975.84 --> 2982.04] django rails sales you know things in that domain i mean i think we're seeing that a lot with react [2982.04 --> 2988.42] right react is actually becoming the boring technology it is it's being assailed by people saying it's you [2988.42 --> 2994.00] know it's not the new hotness anymore but that is actually in my opinion one of the reasons why a lot [2994.00 --> 3000.96] of people are using it because it just works for what it does object storage yep object storage blob [3000.96 --> 3012.36] storage i mean actually sqlite sqlite is a boring local database technology that like actually works for a lot [3012.36 --> 3017.36] of different things and you can you can run it live in your browser right you can do all sorts of different [3017.36 --> 3023.86] things with sqlite that give you if you want you know relatively simple but database-like functionality [3023.86 --> 3028.54] in a local environment whether you're shipping an app or you're running something in the browser like [3028.54 --> 3034.70] it just works really cool project that i've been watching called redka which is a re-implementation [3034.70 --> 3042.96] of redis with a sqlite back end so it's actually just sqlite but you have the redis apis so all redis [3042.96 --> 3048.04] clients work against it and it's not as fast as redis was but it's fast enough for most use cases and it's just [3048.04 --> 3055.48] the boring simplistic reliable sqlite at the end of the day that's pretty cool it's kind of a melding [3055.48 --> 3060.78] of the new and the old there because it's a new project but using all the tech because you know redis [3060.78 --> 3065.68] isn't exactly uh open source anymore so a lot of people trying to go out there and find alternatives [3065.68 --> 3071.84] moving forward from redis which i would have historically called at this point kind of a tried and true [3071.84 --> 3078.30] boring piece of tech but got exciting it got exciting recently for non-technical reasons yeah [3078.30 --> 3084.74] for all the wrong reasons redis got exciting again well i think node.js is pretty boring i mean because [3084.74 --> 3090.74] you know what's coming on the podcast is the dinos and the buns right and what's now the boring [3090.74 --> 3097.42] tried and true tech i mean node version 22 that's a lot of versions but rock solid all right well this [3097.42 --> 3102.80] is getting boring so let's end there i will not continue to pester you to list even more [3102.80 --> 3109.22] pieces of boring technology that's the news to discuss unless k-ball you have any other links that [3109.22 --> 3113.54] i didn't see or things that we didn't mention as we went along things i skipped over that you want to [3113.54 --> 3119.62] highlight before we end it i think that is all good the not boring is figuring out how to use ai in [3119.62 --> 3125.76] your projects but as we refer to yes recently like there's no better way to make a project slow and [3125.76 --> 3132.32] not valuable than throw an llm in where it's not useful that being said they are very useful in some [3132.32 --> 3137.90] domains right people are what did we say 62 percent of people using them to help them code yeah if you're [3137.90 --> 3142.72] not already trying that like see where you can find the value because i think and and the reason i bring [3142.72 --> 3148.30] this up is when we talk about boring and we talk about exciting technology i think we as as technologists [3148.30 --> 3156.48] as engineers tend to skew to the extremes we tend to either go to i'm going to try everything new [3156.48 --> 3162.80] this is so cool and we see this in the hype waves and like oh my gosh we got to do everything new [3162.80 --> 3168.54] or because we've been burned by that we go into the super skeptic side of like now there's nothing [3168.54 --> 3174.30] valuable here only do the old stuff only do the stuff that's proven and do things and i think [3174.30 --> 3180.42] the kind of using ai to code and using it in some of these domains is one of these where [3180.42 --> 3187.48] those two extremes are both dangerous they both are going to cause problems for you i think if you [3187.48 --> 3193.24] are way in on the hype you're going to end up in one of these you know using it where it shouldn't be [3193.24 --> 3198.72] used and end up in one of these places where like i go back to like the there was a chat bot on a [3198.72 --> 3205.38] airline website that gave away things that the airline did not actually have oh really like [3205.38 --> 3209.34] parts of it and then they were found legally liable they had to follow through on a contract [3209.34 --> 3213.96] because they said it's on your website you have committed to it so it's like a deal that the person [3213.96 --> 3219.10] wouldn't have got otherwise that deal that did not exist yikes and that's real money right there [3219.10 --> 3223.48] they were found legally liable for it right so if you go too far into oh these things are magic [3223.48 --> 3230.78] you will end up you know shooting yourself in the foot with them however they are not pure hype [3230.78 --> 3235.72] they're not crypto it's not just technology for the source of making money and not valuable for [3235.72 --> 3242.26] anything else sorry for us or whoever was it wasn't for us who was who was into crypto uh michael rogers [3242.26 --> 3248.40] yeah sorry but um it's not crypto it's not all scams there is real value there and if you're ignoring [3248.40 --> 3253.46] it because you're in that sort of like oh it's been overhyped so clearly there's nothing actually here [3253.46 --> 3257.68] you are going to get left behind and so i think that is in that domain of it's not boring [3257.68 --> 3265.58] but it's worth looking into but don't buy into all the total crazy agi next year hype right well said [3265.58 --> 3272.06] i agree on all fronts cool so aren't you also i saw on linkedin you were doing some sort of ai [3272.06 --> 3278.88] productivity thing you wanna i am doing ai stuff yeah so a couple different things so my uh the company [3278.88 --> 3284.28] i work for mento is a coaching company we're working on ai coaching tools which is kind of fun [3284.28 --> 3290.24] and it is trying to find that line of like okay let's not over promise but let's deliver something [3290.24 --> 3296.06] that's actually valuable to people and as a part of that we're uncovering all these different pieces [3296.06 --> 3300.44] around like how do we actually productively use it so i think what you probably saw was i'm giving a [3300.44 --> 3306.94] talk this summer on an application pattern around ai and here's the key piece of it so it uses the ai [3306.94 --> 3311.52] to interact with someone to extract some information but then you validate it with that person because [3311.52 --> 3316.72] one of the core problems with these ai tools is they will lie to you and they may get things right [3316.72 --> 3322.46] 80 of the time even 90 or 95 of the time but if you're going to go and take what somebody has said to [3322.46 --> 3327.16] you and like go off and do something you need to validate it first and then once you validate it you [3327.16 --> 3333.32] can extrapolate from there so i think as we talk about ai like thinking about how do you validate [3333.32 --> 3339.06] what you're doing with it and what you're getting with it so if you're in that ai chatbot case is there [3339.06 --> 3343.72] a way you can formally represent whatever the agreement is you've gotten to and validate it [3343.72 --> 3349.72] formally okay these are the sets of offers that we actually can offer or run it by a human or do [3349.72 --> 3356.30] something else but like thinking about these patterns of ai is really useful and it is not reliable in the [3356.30 --> 3362.12] way we're used to thinking of software as being reliable right so we need to use it and then find a way to [3362.12 --> 3367.72] validate the outcomes very cool well hit me up with a link to whatever conference or whatever [3367.72 --> 3372.28] talk you're giving so we can hook people up in the show notes yeah for those who are interested in [3372.28 --> 3379.82] hearing about that sounds interesting to me indeed all right on behalf of kball and jsparty i'm jared [3379.82 --> 3398.70] we'll talk to you all on the next one all right that is jsparty for this week thanks for hanging with [3398.70 --> 3405.10] us you've heard kball and my thoughts now on all the news of late but what about your thoughts got any [3405.10 --> 3409.70] hot takes we'd love to hear from you there's a link in the show notes leave us a comment on the [3409.70 --> 3415.90] episode thanks again to our partners at fly.io to our mysterious friend breakmaster cylinder who [3415.90 --> 3421.40] cranks out fresh beads for us on the regular and to our friends at sentry use code changelog when you [3421.40 --> 3427.18] sign up to save 100 bucks on the team plan sentry's awesome we love it and we think you'll love it too [3427.18 --> 3433.44] code changelog 100 bucks off it's just that easy that is all i got but come back and party with us again [3433.44 --> 3434.30] next week