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3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.181.0
My right hon. and learned Friend and I have crossed swords on this matter on a number of occasions over the past 15 or 20 years—since he made his maiden speech. With regard to his assertions about the common law, does he believe that the common law would be sustainable in the context of the charter of fundamental right...
William Cash
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
My right hon. and learned Friend and I have crossed swords on this matter on a number of occasions over the past 15 or 20 years—since he made his maiden speech. With regard to his assertions about the common law, does he believe that the common law would be sustainable in the context of the charter of fundamental right...
0.283176
601
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.181.1
The biggest threat to the common law is the statutes we pass in the House that undermine it. The principles of the common law are crystal clear in respect of the right of a British-born citizen and the Queen’s subject to reside in their homeland. Parliament, if it so wished, could undermine that. That has always been t...
Dominic Grieve
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
The biggest threat to the common law is the statutes we pass in the House that undermine it. The principles of the common law are crystal clear in respect of the right of a British-born citizen and the Queen’s subject to reside in their homeland. Parliament, if it so wished, could undermine that. That has always been t...
0.244271
602
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.181.2
With respect, does my right hon. and learned Friend not realise how out of touch he is? He talks about vulnerable people and the rights of free-born Englishmen, which is all wonderful stuff, but the people that the Secretary of State is trying to exclude are crazed jihadists who hate our liberties and our country, who ...
Edward Leigh
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
With respect, does my right hon. and learned Friend not realise how out of touch he is? He talks about vulnerable people and the rights of free-born Englishmen, which is all wonderful stuff, but the people that the Secretary of State is trying to exclude are crazed jihadists who hate our liberties and our country, who ...
0.264475
603
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.181.3
They might be crazed jihadists, and they might be suspected of being crazed jihadists. It might be that they should be brought to justice and imprisoned for the rest of their natural lives. All those things are possible, but I happen to believe in the presumption of innocence. If I may say so, I am a bit surprised, giv...
Dominic Grieve
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
They might be crazed jihadists, and they might be suspected of being crazed jihadists. It might be that they should be brought to justice and imprisoned for the rest of their natural lives. All those things are possible, but I happen to believe in the presumption of innocence. If I may say so, I am a bit surprised, giv...
0.251053
604
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.182.0
Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that, as a matter of efficacy, if we want to focus these powers on the crazed jihadi, rather than see mission creep with the powers stretched beyond their original intention, the surest way to do that would be by having a check through the courts?
Dominic Raab
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that, as a matter of efficacy, if we want to focus these powers on the crazed jihadi, rather than see mission creep with the powers stretched beyond their original intention, the surest way to do that would be by having a check through the courts?
0.31687
605
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.182.1
I agree entirely. The truth, I suspect, is that we simply do not know the full spectrum of individuals who have been lured to places such as Syria and Iraq, drawn by the attraction of ISIL. Some will indeed be crazed jihadists, and some might be mass murders, but others might be terrified teenagers who have realised th...
Dominic Grieve
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
I agree entirely. The truth, I suspect, is that we simply do not know the full spectrum of individuals who have been lured to places such as Syria and Iraq, drawn by the attraction of ISIL. Some will indeed be crazed jihadists, and some might be mass murders, but others might be terrified teenagers who have realised th...
0.290329
606
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.182.2
Amendment 18, which stands in my name, has been grouped with those that we are now debating. I endorse what the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), the former Attorney-General, has said. I have been concerned from the very beginning, as those who have been involved in the debates know, that powe...
David Winnick
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
Amendment 18, which stands in my name, has been grouped with those that we are now debating. I endorse what the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), the former Attorney-General, has said. I have been concerned from the very beginning, as those who have been involved in the debates know, that powe...
0.284695
607
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.183.0
The hon. Gentleman talked about the exclusion of the courts, and the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) said much the same from the Front Bench, because it is implicit in what he is proposing that the courts would have to be involved, but clause 2 states that “Condition A is that the Secretary of State reasonably ...
William Cash
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
The hon. Gentleman talked about the exclusion of the courts, and the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) said much the same from the Front Bench, because it is implicit in what he is proposing that the courts would have to be involved, but clause 2 states that “Condition A is that the Secretary of State reasonably ...
0.314252
608
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.184.0
The hon. Gentleman and I are never likely to reach agreement on these issues. There are honest disagreements that arose in the previous Parliament, where we had sharp differences of opinion. I respect his point of view; I hope he respects mine. Judicial review is not the right way of trying to avoid the courts’ involve...
David Winnick
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
The hon. Gentleman and I are never likely to reach agreement on these issues. There are honest disagreements that arose in the previous Parliament, where we had sharp differences of opinion. I respect his point of view; I hope he respects mine. Judicial review is not the right way of trying to avoid the courts’ involve...
0.271822
609
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.184.1
I must begin by apologising for not being present at the outset of the debate. The business of the House accelerated beyond my expectation and I am not as fleet of foot, perhaps, as I once was. In the felicitous event that my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) and I had been sitting t...
Menzies Campbell
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
I must begin by apologising for not being present at the outset of the debate. The business of the House accelerated beyond my expectation and I am not as fleet of foot, perhaps, as I once was. In the felicitous event that my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) and I had been sitting t...
0.276555
610
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.186.0
I seek clarification from my right hon. and learned Friend, based on his considerable knowledge and experience, on what question the court would address if it is not the judicial review question as to whether the Home Secretary acted reasonably in the determination that he or she has made. What question would the court...
Alan Beith
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
I seek clarification from my right hon. and learned Friend, based on his considerable knowledge and experience, on what question the court would address if it is not the judicial review question as to whether the Home Secretary acted reasonably in the determination that he or she has made. What question would the court...
0.305967
611
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.186.1
The question is one of the Home Secretary having to persuade the court that he or she was entitled to make the order that was sought. In doing so, consideration would have to be given to all the individual circumstances that lay around that application. When one has gone a step further to judicial review, the question ...
Menzies Campbell
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
The question is one of the Home Secretary having to persuade the court that he or she was entitled to make the order that was sought. In doing so, consideration would have to be given to all the individual circumstances that lay around that application. When one has gone a step further to judicial review, the question ...
0.269811
612
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.186.2
After almost four days of debate, this Bill has almost burst into life after I do not know how many hours. Today there have been all sorts of threats of Back-Bench rebellions. The Liberals were going to get up to something; there was going to be a vote against the Government; and there are newspaper articles suggesting...
Pete Wishart
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
After almost four days of debate, this Bill has almost burst into life after I do not know how many hours. Today there have been all sorts of threats of Back-Bench rebellions. The Liberals were going to get up to something; there was going to be a vote against the Government; and there are newspaper articles suggesting...
0.281022
613
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.186.3
Perhaps the answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question is that most Members of Parliament support the Government line.
Edward Leigh
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
Perhaps the answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question is that most Members of Parliament support the Government line.
0.266369
614
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.187.0
Perhaps I could help a little. Obviously we want to get to the new clauses and amendments rather than discussing who has turned up and who has not.
Lindsay Hoyle
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
Perhaps I could help a little. Obviously we want to get to the new clauses and amendments rather than discussing who has turned up and who has not.
0.370287
615
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.187.1
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Unfortunately I missed the beginning of this debate on temporary exclusion orders. I apologise to the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), because I wanted to welcome the Labour party out of the anti-civil liberties wilderness. These are actually worthy amendments. I do not think I hav...
Pete Wishart
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Unfortunately I missed the beginning of this debate on temporary exclusion orders. I apologise to the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), because I wanted to welcome the Labour party out of the anti-civil liberties wilderness. These are actually worthy amendments. I do not think I hav...
0.289962
616
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.187.2
I have listened with great interest to the hon. Gentleman’s contributions throughout the passage of this Bill. While he is on the subject of the Labour party, will he tell us whether he is likely to support the amendments tabled in the names of my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) and others?
George Howarth
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
I have listened with great interest to the hon. Gentleman’s contributions throughout the passage of this Bill. While he is on the subject of the Labour party, will he tell us whether he is likely to support the amendments tabled in the names of my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) and others?
0.320912
617
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.187.3
That is what I am doing. I am congratulating the Labour party. This evening, for probably the first time in 15 years, I will be rushing through the Lobby to support the Labour party. Come on board! Re-establish the Labour party with its civil liberties—
Pete Wishart
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
That is what I am doing. I am congratulating the Labour party. This evening, for probably the first time in 15 years, I will be rushing through the Lobby to support the Labour party. Come on board! Re-establish the Labour party with its civil liberties—
0.235867
618
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.187.4
Order. We need to get to the new clauses and amendments. I understand that you want to try to make this into a political broadcast, but I am not into that at the moment. I am into hearing your views on the new clauses and amendments, not on the history of the Labour party for the past 15 years.
Lindsay Hoyle
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
Order. We need to get to the new clauses and amendments. I understand that you want to try to make this into a political broadcast, but I am not into that at the moment. I am into hearing your views on the new clauses and amendments, not on the history of the Labour party for the past 15 years.
0.343311
619
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.187.5
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. We have these amendments today because there has been an intervention from David Anderson, the anti-terrorism supremo. We all have to listen very carefully to what David Anderson says about this. He is absolutely spot on, of course. With measures such as this, we need judicial oversight. A...
Pete Wishart
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. We have these amendments today because there has been an intervention from David Anderson, the anti-terrorism supremo. We all have to listen very carefully to what David Anderson says about this. He is absolutely spot on, of course. With measures such as this, we need judicial oversight. A...
0.299898
620
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.189.0
I am concerned, and have been for a long time, about the apparent not indifference to but unawareness of the danger facing citizens of the United Kingdom if jihadists of the kind I will describe in moment—my amendment 22 provides a definition—return to the UK and commit horrible and appalling atrocities similar to that...
William Cash
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
I am concerned, and have been for a long time, about the apparent not indifference to but unawareness of the danger facing citizens of the United Kingdom if jihadists of the kind I will describe in moment—my amendment 22 provides a definition—return to the UK and commit horrible and appalling atrocities similar to that...
0.274795
621
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.191.0
A few moments ago, the hon. Gentleman referred to wishy-washy liberties. Is not liberty one of the most important reasons why this place exists?
David Winnick
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
A few moments ago, the hon. Gentleman referred to wishy-washy liberties. Is not liberty one of the most important reasons why this place exists?
0.28279
622
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.192.0
Yes, it certainly is, but it is also subject to the question of what is the appropriate rule of law. The law—for example, on the right of abode, and in relation to the question of section 2 of the Immigration Act 1971—is what Parliament has decided is appropriate for the circumstances at the time. However, times have m...
William Cash
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
Yes, it certainly is, but it is also subject to the question of what is the appropriate rule of law. The law—for example, on the right of abode, and in relation to the question of section 2 of the Immigration Act 1971—is what Parliament has decided is appropriate for the circumstances at the time. However, times have m...
0.299028
623
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.192.1
Surely the rule of law must imply and mean in practice that no one’s liberty should be taken away except by the courts.
David Winnick
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
Surely the rule of law must imply and mean in practice that no one’s liberty should be taken away except by the courts.
0.195802
624
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.192.2
There are very sound reasons why the Secretary of State should have the right to determine these questions, as she does in many other cases. I have already made the point that at every stage in conditions A to D the Secretary of State may take only such action that she “reasonably” considers appropriate under the circu...
William Cash
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
There are very sound reasons why the Secretary of State should have the right to determine these questions, as she does in many other cases. I have already made the point that at every stage in conditions A to D the Secretary of State may take only such action that she “reasonably” considers appropriate under the circu...
0.301211
625
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.192.3
The hon. Gentleman refers to conditions A to D, which refer to the Secretary of State “reasonably” suspecting or considering something. Amendment 22 states that “the Secretary of State has provided evidence, whether or not conditions A to D are met”. Provided evidence to whom or to what?
Mark Durkan
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
The hon. Gentleman refers to conditions A to D, which refer to the Secretary of State “reasonably” suspecting or considering something. Amendment 22 states that “the Secretary of State has provided evidence, whether or not conditions A to D are met”. Provided evidence to whom or to what?
0.27447
626
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.192.4
Provided evidence to those who will be making decisions about terrorism-related activities. It is not just about providing evidence to the court, which I think is implicit in what the hon. Gentleman is suggesting; it is about providing evidence about the facts described in the amendment. It is not necessary for the cas...
William Cash
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
Provided evidence to those who will be making decisions about terrorism-related activities. It is not just about providing evidence to the court, which I think is implicit in what the hon. Gentleman is suggesting; it is about providing evidence about the facts described in the amendment. It is not necessary for the cas...
0.322732
627
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.193.0
Unlike many of my colleagues I am more sympathetic to the Government’s position than others, although I respect the deep concerns felt across the House about broad issues of civil liberties. I have less concern about the temporary exclusion order being down to Executive authority, and in many ways the accountability of...
Mark Field
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
Unlike many of my colleagues I am more sympathetic to the Government’s position than others, although I respect the deep concerns felt across the House about broad issues of civil liberties. I have less concern about the temporary exclusion order being down to Executive authority, and in many ways the accountability of...
0.273054
628
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.193.1
Does the hon. Gentleman accept that judicial review can look only at the process of reaching a decision, but that judicial oversight would be in a position to take further evidence on the correctness of the decision? Surely that is appropriate to these circumstances.
David Heath
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
Does the hon. Gentleman accept that judicial review can look only at the process of reaching a decision, but that judicial oversight would be in a position to take further evidence on the correctness of the decision? Surely that is appropriate to these circumstances.
0.301291
629
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.193.2
That is the principle of judicial review, as the hon. Gentleman is well aware, and judicial activism has put matters well beyond that particular point. I have two more brief observations, and I have some sympathy with the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), who is not currently in his place. My c...
Mark Field
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
That is the principle of judicial review, as the hon. Gentleman is well aware, and judicial activism has put matters well beyond that particular point. I have two more brief observations, and I have some sympathy with the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), who is not currently in his place. My c...
0.31181
630
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.194.0
Like other Members, I have listened to the debate and to the various points that have been made. What strikes me is that the parties, in the political ballet of this place as people swap Benches, have taken different positions on judicial oversight on previous occasions, adding to the observation that irony in politics...
Mark Durkan
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
Like other Members, I have listened to the debate and to the various points that have been made. What strikes me is that the parties, in the political ballet of this place as people swap Benches, have taken different positions on judicial oversight on previous occasions, adding to the observation that irony in politics...
0.297275
631
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.196.0
The experience of the constituent of the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), which I was interested to learn about, illustrates the difficulty that faces us. I do not suppose that anybody in the House—certainly not the Home Secretary or the Minister—wants to do anything that makes it more difficult to catch terrorists...
Edward Garnier
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
The experience of the constituent of the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), which I was interested to learn about, illustrates the difficulty that faces us. I do not suppose that anybody in the House—certainly not the Home Secretary or the Minister—wants to do anything that makes it more difficult to catch terrorists...
0.292713
632
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.197.0
My objection is not that there is not a great power of intellect in the House of Lords; it is that if the Government have already made up their mind to do it, they should do it here, rather than waiting for a defeat in the Lords.
Mark Field
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
My objection is not that there is not a great power of intellect in the House of Lords; it is that if the Government have already made up their mind to do it, they should do it here, rather than waiting for a defeat in the Lords.
0.275163
633
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.197.1
I see. That is a different point from the one I was addressing, so I apologise to my hon. Friend. Either way, I want the Bill adjusted for greater judicial oversight. My hon. Friend is not as anxious as I am about the temporary exclusion orders in clause 3. I would not be as anxious as I am if the expression “temporary...
Edward Garnier
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
I see. That is a different point from the one I was addressing, so I apologise to my hon. Friend. Either way, I want the Bill adjusted for greater judicial oversight. My hon. Friend is not as anxious as I am about the temporary exclusion orders in clause 3. I would not be as anxious as I am if the expression “temporary...
0.310689
634
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.197.2
Would my hon. and learned Friend be kind enough to give way?
William Cash
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
Would my hon. and learned Friend be kind enough to give way?
0.237205
635
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.197.3
I give way to a fellow member of the former shadow Attorney-General’s club.
Edward Garnier
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
I give way to a fellow member of the former shadow Attorney-General’s club.
0.23644
636
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.197.4
The old cabal. I wonder if my hon. and learned Friend would be good enough to answer this simple question: does he believe that the charter of fundamental rights could not get involved in this process? If so, what would his answer be?
William Cash
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
The old cabal. I wonder if my hon. and learned Friend would be good enough to answer this simple question: does he believe that the charter of fundamental rights could not get involved in this process? If so, what would his answer be?
0.309577
637
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.198.0
I am not going to answer that question, because it is not central to my point. When my hon. Friend and I meet elsewhere—perhaps in some shadow Attorney-Generals’ afterlife—we can have a long and fascinating conversation about the matter he has just raised, but if he does not mind, I want to make a few brief points. Tem...
Edward Garnier
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
I am not going to answer that question, because it is not central to my point. When my hon. Friend and I meet elsewhere—perhaps in some shadow Attorney-Generals’ afterlife—we can have a long and fascinating conversation about the matter he has just raised, but if he does not mind, I want to make a few brief points. Tem...
0.271878
638
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.198.1
Would the hon. and learned Gentleman be happier, as I would be, if, by the time the Bill returned from the Lords, it was a Bill about managed return, not exclusion, and if exclusion were the back-up to enforcing managed return?
Alan Beith
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
Would the hon. and learned Gentleman be happier, as I would be, if, by the time the Bill returned from the Lords, it was a Bill about managed return, not exclusion, and if exclusion were the back-up to enforcing managed return?
0.299316
639
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.198.2
For all sorts of reasons, “managed return” is a more accurate description of what we are about, and I do not see there is any harm in being accurate. I do not know whether the Government will change the Bill to the extent of removing the expression “temporary exclusion”, except in the sense the right hon. Gentleman mea...
Edward Garnier
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
For all sorts of reasons, “managed return” is a more accurate description of what we are about, and I do not see there is any harm in being accurate. I do not know whether the Government will change the Bill to the extent of removing the expression “temporary exclusion”, except in the sense the right hon. Gentleman mea...
0.326757
640
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.198.3
The hon. and learned Gentleman might recall that when the Home Secretary introduced the Bill she referred several times to “managed return” rather than “temporary exclusion order”, so perhaps he is pushing at a door that is more open than he expected.
Menzies Campbell
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
The hon. and learned Gentleman might recall that when the Home Secretary introduced the Bill she referred several times to “managed return” rather than “temporary exclusion order”, so perhaps he is pushing at a door that is more open than he expected.
0.289944
641
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.198.4
One never knows if the draught is going one way or the other, but let us hope that there is some meeting of minds. As I said, it is not a matter of fundamental principle; I just think it would be neater and more accurate to use the expression “managed return”. I have no objection to the Home Secretary, in an emergency,...
Edward Garnier
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
One never knows if the draught is going one way or the other, but let us hope that there is some meeting of minds. As I said, it is not a matter of fundamental principle; I just think it would be neater and more accurate to use the expression “managed return”. I have no objection to the Home Secretary, in an emergency,...
0.291934
642
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.199.0
I associate myself almost entirely with the assessment of the Bill by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier). Over the past several decades, any number of counter-terrorism Bills have been put before the House. Some have been justified; some have not. Some have been effective; some ha...
David Davis
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
I associate myself almost entirely with the assessment of the Bill by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier). Over the past several decades, any number of counter-terrorism Bills have been put before the House. Some have been justified; some have not. Some have been effective; some ha...
0.313632
643
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.199.1
I hesitate to speak in the company of such distinguished lawyers, as I am just a former common or garden practitioner in the criminal courts, but I would like to give the view, as I understand it, of most members of the public. I very much hope in respect of what the public want that the Government will be firm today a...
Edward Leigh
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
I hesitate to speak in the company of such distinguished lawyers, as I am just a former common or garden practitioner in the criminal courts, but I would like to give the view, as I understand it, of most members of the public. I very much hope in respect of what the public want that the Government will be firm today a...
0.262032
644
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.201.0
Given the logic of the hon. Gentleman’s argument, does he believe that we should remove judicial oversight for the current TPIM regime?
David Hanson
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
Given the logic of the hon. Gentleman’s argument, does he believe that we should remove judicial oversight for the current TPIM regime?
0.280954
645
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.201.1
I think we are talking about something slightly different. As I understand it, TPIMs deal with someone who is here and whose freedom of movement and operation in this country is being controlled. That is rather different from facing someone who has gone abroad to fight jihad. Presumably, intelligence suddenly arrives t...
Edward Leigh
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
I think we are talking about something slightly different. As I understand it, TPIMs deal with someone who is here and whose freedom of movement and operation in this country is being controlled. That is rather different from facing someone who has gone abroad to fight jihad. Presumably, intelligence suddenly arrives t...
0.24938
646
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.202.0
Following the atrocity of 7/7, public anger was very obvious and justified, given that 52 people had been murdered and so many others had been seriously injured as a result of terrorism. Surely, however, the role of the House of Commons following that atrocity was to assess whether or not the Government were responding...
David Winnick
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
Following the atrocity of 7/7, public anger was very obvious and justified, given that 52 people had been murdered and so many others had been seriously injured as a result of terrorism. Surely, however, the role of the House of Commons following that atrocity was to assess whether or not the Government were responding...
0.231473
647
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.202.1
Of course I do not propose to leave it to the public and their anger. That is taking my arguments to an extreme limit. I am not suggesting that there should be a lynch mob and that everyone who comes back from Syria should be stopped by the public. We are not talking about the public. We are talking about the Secretary...
Edward Leigh
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
Of course I do not propose to leave it to the public and their anger. That is taking my arguments to an extreme limit. I am not suggesting that there should be a lynch mob and that everyone who comes back from Syria should be stopped by the public. We are not talking about the public. We are talking about the Secretary...
0.248677
648
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.202.2
rose—
David Davis
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
rose—
0.17461
649
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.202.3
Before I end my speech, I had better give way to my good friend.
Edward Leigh
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
Before I end my speech, I had better give way to my good friend.
0.177185
650
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.202.4
It is necessary to protect public security while avoiding miscarriages of justice. Does my hon. Friend accept that, in a number of cases, the clear finding of the Special Immigration Appeals Commission—the court, a secret court, that will probably consider these matters—has been that the Home Secretary of the day has m...
David Davis
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
It is necessary to protect public security while avoiding miscarriages of justice. Does my hon. Friend accept that, in a number of cases, the clear finding of the Special Immigration Appeals Commission—the court, a secret court, that will probably consider these matters—has been that the Home Secretary of the day has m...
0.260443
651
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.202.5
I broadly accept that point. Much as I admire the Secretary of State and her advisers, I freely accept that she may make a mistake. However, I think that, just as in the second world war, the threat is such that there must be some diminution of our traditional civil liberties to protect the liberty of the wider public....
Edward Leigh
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
I broadly accept that point. Much as I admire the Secretary of State and her advisers, I freely accept that she may make a mistake. However, I think that, just as in the second world war, the threat is such that there must be some diminution of our traditional civil liberties to protect the liberty of the wider public....
0.280328
652
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.203.0
I want to make a few brief comments about the important and, in many respects, symbolic issue that is being raised in the wider context of the Bill. I think that there are strong principled arguments in favour of judicial oversight in relation to the power of temporary exclusion, especially when it involves a British c...
Dominic Raab
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
I want to make a few brief comments about the important and, in many respects, symbolic issue that is being raised in the wider context of the Bill. I think that there are strong principled arguments in favour of judicial oversight in relation to the power of temporary exclusion, especially when it involves a British c...
0.284053
653
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.204.0
I greatly appreciate the speech that we have just heard. It reflects many views that I have held for a very long time. The fear that I express about the current provisions of the Bill is not a criticism of the Ministers who introduced them, but it echoes some of the comments that have just been made by my hon. Friend t...
Richard Shepherd
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
I greatly appreciate the speech that we have just heard. It reflects many views that I have held for a very long time. The fear that I express about the current provisions of the Bill is not a criticism of the Ministers who introduced them, but it echoes some of the comments that have just been made by my hon. Friend t...
0.285673
654
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.205.0
This has been a carefully considered and good debate. Some hon. Members have highlighted that, on previous occasions when we have discussed counter-terrorism legislation, the atmosphere has been quite febrile—perhaps there was a charged environment. Some have said today that it would almost be better if there were that...
James Brokenshire
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
This has been a carefully considered and good debate. Some hon. Members have highlighted that, on previous occasions when we have discussed counter-terrorism legislation, the atmosphere has been quite febrile—perhaps there was a charged environment. Some have said today that it would almost be better if there were that...
0.318512
655
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.206.0
Just to clarify matters for myself—this may be obvious—the decision to exclude is not in any way a suspension of British citizenship. Therefore, that individual will still have any other rights of citizenship, including consular protection, if that were required.
David Heath
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
Just to clarify matters for myself—this may be obvious—the decision to exclude is not in any way a suspension of British citizenship. Therefore, that individual will still have any other rights of citizenship, including consular protection, if that were required.
0.264036
656
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.206.1
I absolutely endorse what my hon. Friend has said. This is not about citizenship. This is a temporary exclusion order. I have said in the House on many occasions, and indeed in evidence to Select Committees, that individuals will not be rendered stateless. They will not be left unable to return to the UK for an indefin...
James Brokenshire
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
I absolutely endorse what my hon. Friend has said. This is not about citizenship. This is a temporary exclusion order. I have said in the House on many occasions, and indeed in evidence to Select Committees, that individuals will not be rendered stateless. They will not be left unable to return to the UK for an indefin...
0.327824
657
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.206.2
Would the Minister be good enough to explain why there is no condition applied for a temporary exclusion order where the individual has clearly repudiated allegiance to the UK, has adopted jihad and has sworn allegiance to an organisation such as ISIL? In those circumstances, how could we possibly not want to exclude s...
William Cash
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
Would the Minister be good enough to explain why there is no condition applied for a temporary exclusion order where the individual has clearly repudiated allegiance to the UK, has adopted jihad and has sworn allegiance to an organisation such as ISIL? In those circumstances, how could we possibly not want to exclude s...
0.27781
658
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.206.3
I will come on to my hon. Friend’s amendments later, but the test is “that the Secretary of State reasonably suspects that the individual is, or has been, involved in terrorism-related activity outside the United Kingdom” and “that it is necessary, for purposes connected with protecting members of the public in the Uni...
James Brokenshire
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
I will come on to my hon. Friend’s amendments later, but the test is “that the Secretary of State reasonably suspects that the individual is, or has been, involved in terrorism-related activity outside the United Kingdom” and “that it is necessary, for purposes connected with protecting members of the public in the Uni...
0.299353
659
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.207.0
rose—
William Cash
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
rose—
0.17461
660
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.207.1
I promise that I will come back to my hon. Friend’s points, but I would like to get to the Opposition Front-Bench amendments. These amendments would require the Secretary of State to apply for permission from the courts before imposing a temporary exclusion order. The mechanism provided for in these amendments is almos...
James Brokenshire
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
I promise that I will come back to my hon. Friend’s points, but I would like to get to the Opposition Front-Bench amendments. These amendments would require the Secretary of State to apply for permission from the courts before imposing a temporary exclusion order. The mechanism provided for in these amendments is almos...
0.297824
661
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.207.2
What the Minister has just said seems to support the suggestions made by me and others that this is not a temporary exclusion order. It is not an exclusion order at all; rather, it is a managed return order. If we get the semantics right, a lot of the other stuff fits better into place.
Edward Garnier
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
What the Minister has just said seems to support the suggestions made by me and others that this is not a temporary exclusion order. It is not an exclusion order at all; rather, it is a managed return order. If we get the semantics right, a lot of the other stuff fits better into place.
0.332497
662
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.207.3
I hear the point my hon. and learned Friend makes, and the issue came up when we considered this in Committee, but I think it is right to describe it as a temporary exclusion order because although it clearly facilitates return—it manages return; it manages the control of an individual once they have returned to the UK...
James Brokenshire
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
I hear the point my hon. and learned Friend makes, and the issue came up when we considered this in Committee, but I think it is right to describe it as a temporary exclusion order because although it clearly facilitates return—it manages return; it manages the control of an individual once they have returned to the UK...
0.301917
663
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.208.0
The Minister must recognise that our amendments are exactly the same as those we tabled in Committee three weeks ago. He has had three weeks to consider these matters, yet today he still asks this House to accept that he is not able to endorse the proposals.
David Hanson
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
The Minister must recognise that our amendments are exactly the same as those we tabled in Committee three weeks ago. He has had three weeks to consider these matters, yet today he still asks this House to accept that he is not able to endorse the proposals.
0.297374
664
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.209.0
There are a number of issues that require further consideration. It is better to get this right and to consider things carefully, and the debates we have had in this House have enabled us to advance in that regard. Rather than, as has happened in other cases, having legislation rushed through both Houses of Parliament,...
James Brokenshire
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
There are a number of issues that require further consideration. It is better to get this right and to consider things carefully, and the debates we have had in this House have enabled us to advance in that regard. Rather than, as has happened in other cases, having legislation rushed through both Houses of Parliament,...
0.356358
665
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.209.1
Obviously, I cannot speak on behalf of Labour Front-Benchers, but I hope they are not prepared to accept the Minister’s dissatisfactory response. Not only did the Opposition table these amendments last year but David Anderson said these things in November 2014, and the Government have failed to act. Why should we belie...
Pete Wishart
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
Obviously, I cannot speak on behalf of Labour Front-Benchers, but I hope they are not prepared to accept the Minister’s dissatisfactory response. Not only did the Opposition table these amendments last year but David Anderson said these things in November 2014, and the Government have failed to act. Why should we belie...
0.316564
666
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.209.2
I have clearly recognised the issues highlighted by David Anderson and by right hon. and hon. Members during this debate. The hon. Gentleman should take reassurance from my statements. Amendments 21 and 23, which are in the names of my hon. Friends the Members for Stone (Sir William Cash) and for Gainsborough (Sir Edwa...
James Brokenshire
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
I have clearly recognised the issues highlighted by David Anderson and by right hon. and hon. Members during this debate. The hon. Gentleman should take reassurance from my statements. Amendments 21 and 23, which are in the names of my hon. Friends the Members for Stone (Sir William Cash) and for Gainsborough (Sir Edwa...
0.313767
667
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.209.3
The Minister frames his response in a reasonable manner but, in line with the international convention on the reduction of statelessness, which is relevant to this measure and to which David Anderson did not refer when he appeared before the Joint Committee on Human Rights, it is an act of treason when a person repudia...
William Cash
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
The Minister frames his response in a reasonable manner but, in line with the international convention on the reduction of statelessness, which is relevant to this measure and to which David Anderson did not refer when he appeared before the Joint Committee on Human Rights, it is an act of treason when a person repudia...
0.287933
668
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.210.0
I recognise the strength of feeling that my hon. Friend and other hon. Members have on the need to ensure that we are acting appropriately to address the threat of terrorism and the dangers and harm that may be caused by jihadists who have travelled abroad and who may wish to return to this country. This measure is abo...
James Brokenshire
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
I recognise the strength of feeling that my hon. Friend and other hon. Members have on the need to ensure that we are acting appropriately to address the threat of terrorism and the dangers and harm that may be caused by jihadists who have travelled abroad and who may wish to return to this country. This measure is abo...
0.291685
669
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.210.1
This has been a useful debate, which is reflected in the fact that it has been longer than I expected. Significant concern has been expressed by right hon. and hon. Members on the Government Back Benches, by Liberal Democrat Members and by Opposition Members, including members of the Scottish National party. The hon. M...
David Hanson
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill
This has been a useful debate, which is reflected in the fact that it has been longer than I expected. Significant concern has been expressed by right hon. and hon. Members on the Government Back Benches, by Liberal Democrat Members and by Opposition Members, including members of the Scottish National party. The hon. M...
0.330976
670
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.210.3
‘(1) This section applies if the Secretary of State— (a) makes the relevant decisions in relation to an individual, and (b) makes an application to the court for permission to impose measures on the individual. (2) The application must set out a draft of the proposed TEO notice. (3) The function of the court on the app...
null
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
New Clause 3— Prior permission of the court
‘(1) This section applies if the Secretary of State— (a) makes the relevant decisions in relation to an individual, and (b) makes an application to the court for permission to impose measures on the individual. (2) The application must set out a draft of the proposed TEO notice. (3) The function of the court on the app...
0.321327
671
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.211.0
Order. As there was a reason for the delay and a large number of Members were held up coming into the Chamber, we will unlock the doors. Whereupon the doors were unlocked. The House having divided:
Eleanor Laing
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
New Clause 3— Prior permission of the court
Order. As there was a reason for the delay and a large number of Members were held up coming into the Chamber, we will unlock the doors. Whereupon the doors were unlocked. The House having divided:
0.199871
672
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.211.1
Ayes 230, Noes 315.
null
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
New Clause 3— Prior permission of the court
Ayes 230, Noes 315.
0.250347
673
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.211.3
Question accordingly negatived.
null
null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
New Clause 3— Prior permission of the court
Question accordingly negatived.
0.235383
674
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.215.1
I beg to move amendment 9, page 1, line 8, at end insert— ‘(2) This section shall be repealed on 31 December 2016 unless both Houses of Parliament have passed a resolution that it should continue in force until a future date. (3) The date specified in a resolution of both Houses of Parliament under subsection (2) may b...
David Hanson
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ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
I beg to move amendment 9, page 1, line 8, at end insert— ‘(2) This section shall be repealed on 31 December 2016 unless both Houses of Parliament have passed a resolution that it should continue in force until a future date. (3) The date specified in a resolution of both Houses of Parliament under subsection (2) may b...
0.344657
675
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.216.0
I am curious to know why the right hon. Gentleman’s amendment applies only to clause 1, unless I have misread it.
David Heath
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ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
I am curious to know why the right hon. Gentleman’s amendment applies only to clause 1, unless I have misread it.
0.32509
676
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.216.1
As ever, we are picking arguments and discussion on a range of issues. We could table an amendment applying to the Bill as a whole, but the power relating to passports is new. We are revisiting amendments that we tabled previously to try to strengthen the Bill. We are testing the Minister’s view on a sunset clause in r...
David Hanson
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null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
As ever, we are picking arguments and discussion on a range of issues. We could table an amendment applying to the Bill as a whole, but the power relating to passports is new. We are revisiting amendments that we tabled previously to try to strengthen the Bill. We are testing the Minister’s view on a sunset clause in r...
0.38832
677
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.217.0
It is curious, though, to table an amendment that deals with the one thing that, in another form, is already on the statute book. Passports can be seized from persons suspected, for example, of football hooliganism to prevent them from travelling. Perhaps this is purely a probing amendment, in which case that is perfec...
David Heath
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null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
It is curious, though, to table an amendment that deals with the one thing that, in another form, is already on the statute book. Passports can be seized from persons suspected, for example, of football hooliganism to prevent them from travelling. Perhaps this is purely a probing amendment, in which case that is perfec...
0.27732
678
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.217.1
I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s contribution. Logicality is a matter of judgment. We have chosen on this occasion to table an amendment introducing a sunset clause, as we did in Committee. We voted on it in Committee and we have chosen to revisit the issue because we think it is worth revisiting, particularly be...
David Hanson
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ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s contribution. Logicality is a matter of judgment. We have chosen on this occasion to table an amendment introducing a sunset clause, as we did in Committee. We voted on it in Committee and we have chosen to revisit the issue because we think it is worth revisiting, particularly be...
0.381051
679
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.217.2
We discussed this matter in Committee, and I do not intend to detain the House for a great deal of time given the succinct way in which the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) highlighted his case. This is an important power that we judge to be necessary given the increasing number of people travelling to engage in...
James Brokenshire
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null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
We discussed this matter in Committee, and I do not intend to detain the House for a great deal of time given the succinct way in which the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) highlighted his case. This is an important power that we judge to be necessary given the increasing number of people travelling to engage in...
0.325002
680
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.218.0
The Minister issued a consultation document on 18 December, which was either the last day or the second-to-last day the House was sitting, and expected Members to know that at the time. He did not have the courtesy to inform me, although we had a debate on these matters. He needs to reflect on that fact. A consultation...
David Hanson
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null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
The Minister issued a consultation document on 18 December, which was either the last day or the second-to-last day the House was sitting, and expected Members to know that at the time. He did not have the courtesy to inform me, although we had a debate on these matters. He needs to reflect on that fact. A consultation...
0.35738
681
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.218.1
The right hon. Gentleman was very clear to us about the need for consultation documents to be produced prior to Report stage, and that is precisely what we have done on this and on other matters. Equally, he should reflect on the fact that the Government have not, as has happened previously, waited until Royal Assent b...
James Brokenshire
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ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
The right hon. Gentleman was very clear to us about the need for consultation documents to be produced prior to Report stage, and that is precisely what we have done on this and on other matters. Equally, he should reflect on the fact that the Government have not, as has happened previously, waited until Royal Assent b...
0.367881
682
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.219.0
Does the Minister think that a sunset clause in prevention of terrorism legislation gave succour and comfort to those people for whom it was intended, such as terrorists in Northern Ireland? I do not think it did and I resent the suggestion that we are trying to give succour to terrorism.
David Hanson
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ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
Does the Minister think that a sunset clause in prevention of terrorism legislation gave succour and comfort to those people for whom it was intended, such as terrorists in Northern Ireland? I do not think it did and I resent the suggestion that we are trying to give succour to terrorism.
0.315074
683
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.219.1
If the right hon. Gentleman was listening, he would know that I was clear that I do not believe that to be his intention. I said that it may be an inadvertent consequence. Often, it has become customary for sunset clauses to be inserted when legislation is passed by both Houses over a small number of days. That is not ...
James Brokenshire
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null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
If the right hon. Gentleman was listening, he would know that I was clear that I do not believe that to be his intention. I said that it may be an inadvertent consequence. Often, it has become customary for sunset clauses to be inserted when legislation is passed by both Houses over a small number of days. That is not ...
0.337387
684
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.219.2
I have heard what the Minister has said, but the Opposition still wish to examine the issue in detail and it would be useful for the other place to know that we believe that consideration should be given to a sunset clause. Perhaps it could also take on board the concerns of the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr H...
David Hanson
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ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
I have heard what the Minister has said, but the Opposition still wish to examine the issue in detail and it would be useful for the other place to know that we believe that consideration should be given to a sunset clause. Perhaps it could also take on board the concerns of the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr H...
0.387591
685
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.219.3
Question put, That the amendment be made. The House divided: Ayes 228, Noes 311.
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ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
Question put, That the amendment be made. The House divided: Ayes 228, Noes 311.
0.203246
686
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.219.5
Question accordingly negatived.
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null
null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
Question accordingly negatived.
0.235383
687
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.223.0
I beg to move amendment 10, page 30, line 14, schedule 1, at end insert— “(c) the individual subject whose travel document has been removed may appeal against this decision in the courts over the evidence on which conditions in paragraph 2(1)(a) and (b) of this Schedule were met, (b) the Secretary of State must by regu...
David Hanson
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null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
I beg to move amendment 10, page 30, line 14, schedule 1, at end insert— “(c) the individual subject whose travel document has been removed may appeal against this decision in the courts over the evidence on which conditions in paragraph 2(1)(a) and (b) of this Schedule were met, (b) the Secretary of State must by regu...
0.295208
688
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.224.0
With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 11, page 30, line 14, at end insert— “(c) the individual subject whose travel document has been removed may appeal against this decision in the courts over the evidence on which conditions in paragraph 2(1)(a) and (b) of this Schedule were met, (b) the appeal must ha...
Eleanor Laing
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null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 11, page 30, line 14, at end insert— “(c) the individual subject whose travel document has been removed may appeal against this decision in the courts over the evidence on which conditions in paragraph 2(1)(a) and (b) of this Schedule were met, (b) the appeal must ha...
0.298775
689
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.224.1
The power to seize a passport is set out in clause 1 and schedule 1. For the sake of clarity, I reiterate that we support the general principle of seizure, provided there is sufficient evidence to warrant such action being taken by the officials listed in schedule 1. The question today, which we discussed in Committee,...
David Hanson
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ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
The power to seize a passport is set out in clause 1 and schedule 1. For the sake of clarity, I reiterate that we support the general principle of seizure, provided there is sufficient evidence to warrant such action being taken by the officials listed in schedule 1. The question today, which we discussed in Committee,...
0.293193
690
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.225.0
If someone is going abroad with a British passport, either on business or for humanitarian reasons—to support a charity, for example—would it not be sensible, prior to departing the country, to drop a line to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, saying, “I’m going there for this reason”? That might help and be a good g...
Bob Stewart
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null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
If someone is going abroad with a British passport, either on business or for humanitarian reasons—to support a charity, for example—would it not be sensible, prior to departing the country, to drop a line to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, saying, “I’m going there for this reason”? That might help and be a good g...
0.262527
691
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.225.1
I suspect that that would be a recipe for chaos in the Foreign Office and for difficult decisions having to be made across the board. If everybody who travelled to one of the countries or to a third party country first—such as Istanbul on the way to Syria—it could mean thousands of letters a day pouring into the Foreig...
David Hanson
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ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
I suspect that that would be a recipe for chaos in the Foreign Office and for difficult decisions having to be made across the board. If everybody who travelled to one of the countries or to a third party country first—such as Istanbul on the way to Syria—it could mean thousands of letters a day pouring into the Foreig...
0.296794
692
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.225.2
I am not seeking to undermine the right hon. Gentleman’s cases and I am interested in what he is saying, but will he accept that the drafting of amendment 10 simply does not work? Were it placed where he wants it placed, schedule 1 would read: “If an application for authorisation is granted…the Secretary of State must ...
David Heath
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null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
I am not seeking to undermine the right hon. Gentleman’s cases and I am interested in what he is saying, but will he accept that the drafting of amendment 10 simply does not work? Were it placed where he wants it placed, schedule 1 would read: “If an application for authorisation is granted…the Secretary of State must ...
0.335404
693
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.226.0
The standard excuses are, first, speed and, secondly, the fact that we do not have a Home Office behind us. However, it is the principle of the amendments that I wish to discuss. I might disappoint the hon. Gentleman, because I will consider dividing the House, depending on the outcome of our discussions with the Minis...
David Hanson
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null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
The standard excuses are, first, speed and, secondly, the fact that we do not have a Home Office behind us. However, it is the principle of the amendments that I wish to discuss. I might disappoint the hon. Gentleman, because I will consider dividing the House, depending on the outcome of our discussions with the Minis...
0.259717
694
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.226.1
I recognise that the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) advances a number of themes that we touched on in Committee. Equally, I recognise his ability to challenge and scrutinise the level of oversight provided in respect of this particular power. I respect that and the fact that the Opposition have given their bro...
James Brokenshire
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null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
I recognise that the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) advances a number of themes that we touched on in Committee. Equally, I recognise his ability to challenge and scrutinise the level of oversight provided in respect of this particular power. I respect that and the fact that the Opposition have given their bro...
0.310464
695
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.228.0
Is there any process allowing the senior officer reviewing the initial decision by the constable or other lower-ranking officer to receive representations from the person from whom the travel documents are removed, or from a representative of that person?
David Heath
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null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
Is there any process allowing the senior officer reviewing the initial decision by the constable or other lower-ranking officer to receive representations from the person from whom the travel documents are removed, or from a representative of that person?
0.296552
696
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.228.1
The review process does not provide for that, but the consultation on the code of practice that governs the arrangements is open until 30 January, so there will be an opportunity for further representations to be made on the details of how the power would be used in the context of the code. That includes the details of...
James Brokenshire
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null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
The review process does not provide for that, but the consultation on the code of practice that governs the arrangements is open until 30 January, so there will be an opportunity for further representations to be made on the details of how the power would be used in the context of the code. That includes the details of...
0.332021
697
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.228.2
My children have three passports: French, Swiss and British. Is there any provision enabling someone whose British passport is taken away to be prevented from using another passport? I am sorry; that may be a silly question, and we may not be able to provide for such a power.
Bob Stewart
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null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
My children have three passports: French, Swiss and British. Is there any provision enabling someone whose British passport is taken away to be prevented from using another passport? I am sorry; that may be a silly question, and we may not be able to provide for such a power.
0.26909
698
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.228.3
The Bill is, of course, a wider subject than the amendment, but my hon. Friend may wish to consult paragraph 1(7) of schedule 1, which defines a passport as “a United Kingdom passport… a passport issued by or on behalf of the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom”, or “a document that can be ...
James Brokenshire
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null
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
The Bill is, of course, a wider subject than the amendment, but my hon. Friend may wish to consult paragraph 1(7) of schedule 1, which defines a passport as “a United Kingdom passport… a passport issued by or on behalf of the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom”, or “a document that can be ...
0.313428
699
3d6c79a6-f5d9-4841-a351-01d4007957e5
uk.org.publicwhip/debate/2015-01-06c.228.4
I think that the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath) made a good point. If a policeman forms a “reasonable suspicion”, subsequent evidence or information may cause him to change his view. It seems to me that at each stage of the review process it should be possible to take on board what the individual concern...
Dominic Grieve
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ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Internet Communications (Regulation)
Clause 1— Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism
I think that the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath) made a good point. If a policeman forms a “reasonable suspicion”, subsequent evidence or information may cause him to change his view. It seems to me that at each stage of the review process it should be possible to take on board what the individual concern...
0.270955