| [0.00 --> 14.28] this is jsparty your weekly celebration of javascript and the web check us out on the web | |
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| [58.38 --> 62.94] here with another jsparty nick neesey is in the house what's up nick | |
| [62.94 --> 71.84] ahoy hoy hoy to you how's life how's everything it's a it's a whirlwind of delight oh i thought | |
| [71.84 --> 77.34] you're gonna go for ghoulish overkill again like you did last episode but a whirlwind of light | |
| [77.34 --> 84.48] sounds better than ghoulish overkill chris hiller is also here bone skull how are you doing all right | |
| [84.48 --> 90.66] hope everybody's having a nice weekday whatever weekday it is well whatever weekday it is where | |
| [90.66 --> 96.30] you're listening we hope it's good where we are recording it's friday which tends to be of all the | |
| [96.30 --> 103.30] weekdays one of the best doesn't it definitely top three yes for sure top five i would i would hazard | |
| [103.30 --> 109.40] to say top three as well well we have a fun docket today we're going to talk some news we're going to | |
| [109.40 --> 117.20] play a song and we're going to uh discuss node js because that's what we do around here on the | |
| [117.20 --> 126.22] javascript and web dev party show that you're listening to starting right away with rspac the | |
| [126.22 --> 134.66] next generation you know star trek was a pretty good show but tng was a great show especially if you | |
| [134.66 --> 139.54] skip season one and go straight to season two where they really caught their stride and figured | |
| [139.54 --> 145.30] it out nick response you open your mouth i was i was shocked that you said that and then i i just | |
| [145.30 --> 151.92] remember trying to start tng and season one like the q episode whatever the first one i fell asleep | |
| [151.92 --> 159.26] four times it's so bad what podcast am i on right now what what do you guys why star trek the next | |
| [159.26 --> 164.52] generation does that have to do with anything because i just said we're talking about rspac the next | |
| [164.52 --> 170.66] generation javascript bundler and i was making a pop culture reference to star trek the next | |
| [170.66 --> 180.40] generation oh have you seen that show chris yes do you like tng yeah how do you feel about season one | |
| [180.40 --> 186.74] i don't know the worst season i would hazard even though i don't last time i watched it was when it | |
| [186.74 --> 193.04] was on tv okay oh wow that's when i watch it too and then i try to go back and i thought as i try to do | |
| [193.04 --> 197.42] with seinfeld start at season one episode one and it's like yeah you can skip season one of seinfeld | |
| [197.42 --> 201.78] also you know it takes a little while for these shows to really like find themselves and catch their | |
| [201.78 --> 206.56] stride and i just feel like as a public service announcement i'm just telling folks skip season | |
| [206.56 --> 212.98] one start at season two you're going to enjoy that the next generation rspac a javascript bundler | |
| [212.98 --> 217.56] written in can you guys guess which language this is going to be written in it's a next generation | |
| [217.56 --> 222.14] ruby ruby that would be last generation that would be the original star trek | |
| [222.14 --> 227.68] oh i thought it was rspec sorry no rspac s-p-a-c-a that's a good guess though | |
| [227.68 --> 235.18] um it's not dspace nine it's not voyager it's written in rust come on guys you could have guessed | |
| [235.18 --> 241.46] that right written one too all next generation javascript build tools are written in rust aren't | |
| [241.46 --> 249.84] they yeah i mean you you kind of have to it's pretty much what's happening do you though i mean | |
| [249.84 --> 255.28] i think if you want github stars you absolutely if you want to be next generation you have to | |
| [255.28 --> 263.12] write it in rust yeah but i guess but aren't things just fast enough no apparently not because the rspac | |
| [263.12 --> 271.16] team didn't think so they have written this bundler in rust it's compatible with the webpack api | |
| [271.16 --> 277.42] and ecosystem and it is 10 times faster than webpack | |
| [277.42 --> 286.04] neither you guys care do you chris is like i haven't used webpack in years i know of webpack | |
| [286.04 --> 293.06] okay and uh nick's like i just use typescript all the time i just you know i'm excited and i don't | |
| [293.06 --> 299.20] want to like like it's awesome it's awesome that it's rewritten in that but if we start seeing webpack | |
| [299.20 --> 305.50] configs pop up again like what is this all for i still have a webpack config i'm excited because | |
| [305.50 --> 310.24] i still have a webpack config you gotta move to veet baby yeah you're on the veet train i just didn't | |
| [310.24 --> 315.84] want to rewrite anything like i didn't want to touch my config so i just continue to use webpack and it | |
| [315.84 --> 322.68] builds everything in about three seconds perhaps but i'm thinking like 300 milliseconds that would be | |
| [322.68 --> 326.72] 10x faster wouldn't it what are you going to do with those 2.7 seconds | |
| [326.72 --> 333.84] you know how many times that you compile it compounds nick it compounds i mean before long | |
| [333.84 --> 340.42] it's going to be an entire minute of savings well you know it may not be that exciting to us right but | |
| [340.42 --> 349.52] there are a ton of people still using webpack which you know i can't i can't speak to how much of a | |
| [349.52 --> 358.00] drop-in replacement it is i i can't imagine it would maybe it just works but um you know | |
| [358.00 --> 364.20] certainly if you can speed things up and and you don't have to go in there and change a bunch of | |
| [364.20 --> 369.74] stuff oh yeah that's great yeah good news yeah that is a good point like i was totally not thinking | |
| [369.74 --> 375.10] of it from that point i was totally thinking like oh here here comes the return of 400 line config files | |
| [375.10 --> 380.92] oh you think you think they've gone somewhere no they're still around yeah if you still have those | |
| [380.92 --> 388.40] around then you just get these benefits for free yeah that's great actually so this is pitched as a | |
| [388.40 --> 394.08] tool for enterprises and many have been using this so this is built by the | |
| [394.64 --> 403.38] byte dance team of tiktok fame right isn't byte dance tiktok yes yes and so it's used at tiktok | |
| [403.38 --> 411.14] it's also used at places like microsoft amazon intuit discord and others so lots of big webpack | |
| [411.14 --> 416.58] configs probably floating around those organizations and yeah like you said if you can just not have to | |
| [416.58 --> 424.24] rewrite anything and take your three second compilation down to 300 milliseconds why not but | |
| [424.24 --> 430.90] even better take your 13 second one down to 1.3 seconds if i'm doing my divisions by 10 accurately | |
| [430.90 --> 438.46] that's a pretty good win for relatively free right yeah definitely all right well congrats on the | |
| [438.46 --> 445.12] rspac team for hitting their 1.0 and uh hopefully if you didn't hear about it before and you have a | |
| [445.12 --> 452.64] big fat slow webpack config in your life you can make it a big fat fast webpack config with rspac | |
| [452.64 --> 465.40] moving on to our favorite server-side runtime node js have you heard of it yes you have how about | |
| [465.40 --> 471.62] typescript have you heard of it oh yeah node and typescript are like good friends now they've | |
| [471.62 --> 476.54] tightened their relationship we talked about it last time nick was all in a in a tizzy about it | |
| [476.54 --> 483.04] he called an emergency pot over this because node added support for stripping the typescript types | |
| [483.04 --> 488.10] which means you can write typescript and it will ignore it and just run it like javascript right | |
| [488.10 --> 495.10] which is a step without a build step and as of node version 22.7 which i think is probably the | |
| [495.10 --> 502.34] release right after 21 if incrementing things works the way it used to uh there's another new flag | |
| [502.34 --> 510.14] it's called experimental not strip types transform types and uh what does this do well nobody knows | |
| [510.14 --> 516.48] no just kidding it's possible now to enable this transformation of typescript only syntax into | |
| [516.48 --> 523.82] javascript code which allows support for typescript features such as enum or enum if you will and | |
| [523.82 --> 530.70] namespace so i assume there's something about these nick that they can't get stripped or yeah those are | |
| [530.70 --> 538.54] to well enum specifically is like the way that it writes it it's creating this like complex looking | |
| [538.54 --> 546.74] object in typescript okay to emulate that so that you can still have like the the enum like calling | |
| [546.74 --> 553.20] of that enum everywhere like you know uh direction.north or whatever and it'll be an object called | |
| [553.20 --> 559.22] direction that has a north property on it that then has a string or whatever value for it this will | |
| [559.22 --> 563.72] transform it if it works like typescript it'll just transform it into that object which is great | |
| [563.72 --> 567.98] so it's the kind of thing you couldn't strip because it's useful code like you're going to be | |
| [567.98 --> 572.02] using that i just want to i'm trying to understand why you transform it instead of just strip it | |
| [572.02 --> 578.12] because it's not a type it's you know i'm special in that it's not it can't be stripped okay because | |
| [578.12 --> 584.20] it actually just it compiles down to a javascript object a javascript object i see there's | |
| [584.20 --> 589.60] constinuum that is stripped what's constinuum do that would like if you had a value it'll just | |
| [589.60 --> 596.96] replace it at compile time with whatever the value is i see likewise i think namespace is uh | |
| [596.96 --> 606.82] another i assume they just treat it like an object like a object create null type object and you just | |
| [606.82 --> 612.26] throw properties in there but that also would need to be compiled down you cannot strip a namespace | |
| [612.26 --> 619.16] fair so if this was a a two-phase adoption of typescript support phase one would have been | |
| [619.16 --> 624.18] well let's strip all the types we can just strip and now phase two would be there's a few edge cases | |
| [624.18 --> 629.42] or things that you can't strip because they have to be actually included in the compiled product and | |
| [629.42 --> 636.88] so now let's go ahead and add support for transforming them into javascript at build time or at node not not | |
| [636.88 --> 644.72] build time but node run time and now that's there so no uh no emergency pod for this one but he's | |
| [644.72 --> 651.48] he's still smiling he's he's still grinning because it further deepens typescript support in node | |
| [651.48 --> 659.68] however this is a experimental flag which means don't rely on it because it may go away oh | |
| [659.68 --> 667.02] i thought i just meant it's going to be normal later no that is not what experimental means a lot of | |
| [667.02 --> 675.72] things most things that are experimental become stable you know right some things go bye-bye so you | |
| [675.72 --> 683.72] need to be careful if you want to rely on experimental flags i'm also kind of part of team don't ever use | |
| [683.72 --> 689.48] these features in typescript uh the enum in namespace or yeah okay why is that i don't like | |
| [689.48 --> 697.14] that enum specifically are they're like opaque right so you have to if i want to use a string value | |
| [697.14 --> 704.40] a literal like a string literal union is better than me having to also import this object to | |
| [704.40 --> 710.84] set the the same string value essentially i'm just lazy so you're against enum as a feature | |
| [710.84 --> 717.06] in general not as a typescript feature as a yeah as like a list of hard-coded strings i would rather | |
| [717.06 --> 722.74] just have a a list of hard-coded strings yeah i don't think that you get the type benefit any | |
| [722.74 --> 727.62] additional type benefit from that maybe you get some refactoring benefit but it's not that much | |
| [727.62 --> 733.98] okay and chris you were in agreement with nick's premise is it for the same reason yeah i mean i don't | |
| [733.98 --> 745.26] use them i you know if i want to refer to something by a variable name like i will make a an object and | |
| [745.26 --> 753.82] and call it const and import that and just use the you know food.bar or whatever i want to use | |
| [753.82 --> 761.58] yeah it and then you know you can extract a type from that easily like type of key of and then there | |
| [761.58 --> 767.70] you go okay you're all set and namespace similar logic namespace used to be module like that's yeah | |
| [767.70 --> 772.42] before modules were a thing in javascript it was module and then they renamed it to namespace and | |
| [772.42 --> 780.46] i i never used it once they're they're basically not needed anymore you know esm and the whole | |
| [780.46 --> 787.90] module system essentially just it just supersedes it but certainly there's probably some old | |
| [787.90 --> 792.84] typescript code that's using namespace i think typescript itself used it for a long time | |
| [792.84 --> 798.46] i think they might have switched away from it but it's it as far as i understand that and | |
| [798.46 --> 804.84] or maybe enum is regretted like we probably shouldn't have done that but | |
| [804.84 --> 809.94] you know namespace was kind of well we need something so we're gonna have to do this | |
| [809.94 --> 814.64] and it's just kind of a vestige at this point gotcha | |
| [814.64 --> 831.20] okay friends i'm here in the breaks with annie sexton over at fly and you know we use fly here | |
| [831.20 --> 836.46] at changelow we love fly it is such an awesome platform and we love building on it but for those | |
| [836.46 --> 843.02] who don't know much about fly what's special about building on fly fly gives you a lot of flexibility | |
| [843.02 --> 849.42] like a lot of flexibility on multiple fronts and on top of that you get so i've talked a lot about | |
| [849.42 --> 855.64] the the networking and that's obviously one thing but there's various data stores that we partner with | |
| [855.64 --> 862.08] that are really easy to use um actually one of my favorite partners is tigris i can't say enough good | |
| [862.08 --> 867.22] things about them when it comes to object storage i've i never in my life thought i would have so many | |
| [867.22 --> 873.62] opinions about object storage but i do now tigris is a partner of fly and it's s3 compatible object storage | |
| [873.62 --> 879.94] that basically seems like it's a cdn but is not it's basically object storage that's globally distributed | |
| [879.94 --> 885.62] without needing to actually set up a cdn at all it's it's like automatically distributed around the world | |
| [885.62 --> 891.62] um and it's also incredibly easy to use and set up like creating a bucket is literally one command | |
| [891.62 --> 897.06] so it's partners like that that i think are this sort of extra icing on top of fly that really | |
| [897.06 --> 902.72] makes it sort of the platform that has everything that you need so we use tigris here at changelog | |
| [902.72 --> 909.16] are they built on top of fly is this one of those examples of being able to build on fly yeah so tigris | |
| [909.16 --> 914.20] is built on top of fly's infrastructure and that's what allows it to be globally distributed i do have a | |
| [914.20 --> 921.06] video on this but basically the way it works is whenever like let's say a user uploads an asset to | |
| [921.06 --> 926.54] a particular bucket well that gets uploaded directly to the region closest to the user whereas | |
| [926.54 --> 930.62] with a cdn there's sort of like a centralized place where assets need to get copied to and then | |
| [930.62 --> 935.02] eventually they get sort of trickled out to all of the different global locations whereas with tigris | |
| [935.02 --> 939.78] the moment you upload something it's available in that region instantly and then it's eventually | |
| [939.78 --> 944.74] cached in all the other regions as well as it's requested in fact with tigris you don't even have to | |
| [944.74 --> 949.90] select which regions things are stored in you just get these regions for free and then on top of that | |
| [949.90 --> 957.00] it is so much easier to work with i i feel like the way they manage permissions the way they handle | |
| [957.00 --> 964.16] bucket creation making things public or private is just so much simpler than other solutions um and the | |
| [964.16 --> 968.02] good news is that you don't actually need to change your code if you're already using s3 it's s3 | |
| [968.02 --> 972.28] compatible so like whatever sdk you're using is probably just fine and all you got to do is update | |
| [972.28 --> 979.48] the credentials so it's super easy very cool thanks annie so fly has everything you need over three million | |
| [979.48 --> 985.86] applications including ours here at changelog multiple applications have launched on fly boosted | |
| [985.86 --> 993.44] by global anycast load balancing zero configuration private networking hardware isolation instant wire | |
| [993.44 --> 998.90] guard vpn connections push button deployments that scale to thousands of instances it's all there for | |
| [998.90 --> 1006.00] you right now deploy your app in five minutes go to fly.io again fly.io | |
| [1006.00 --> 1018.92] i triple e spectrum which i believe is a website and a used to be a publication it might even still be | |
| [1018.92 --> 1028.88] kind of a magazine from i triple e a journal a journal if you will yes has published on the 22nd of august | |
| [1028.88 --> 1038.18] the top programming languages of 2024 and python wins so surprise surprise what's that to do with | |
| [1038.18 --> 1045.08] jsparty well java second place that's we're halfway there we're halfway to javascript third place | |
| [1045.08 --> 1055.92] javascript with 0.4451 that would be i guess 44 percent of respondents i suppose i haven't gone deep on | |
| [1055.92 --> 1062.94] this data set but then what's interesting is c plus plus comes in and forth which fine it's it's just been | |
| [1062.94 --> 1070.56] there forever and then fifth are you ready for it typescript this is why i pulled this story in because | |
| [1070.56 --> 1076.28] hey we're getting screwed people we should be higher up the list i mean typescript and javascript | |
| [1076.28 --> 1081.84] it's all the same thing isn't it nick i was gonna say if you just add those two together then it's like | |
| [1081.84 --> 1089.08] 0.6 something that's what i'm saying we could be we could be number i guess not number one we could | |
| [1089.08 --> 1094.34] be number two we could beat java which honestly we're beating java aren't we beating java are we | |
| [1094.34 --> 1100.08] on three billion devices probably i would think so anywhere that java is running there's a web browser | |
| [1100.08 --> 1105.80] right that's a large assumption that i can't exactly process i'm like is that right i don't know | |
| [1105.80 --> 1112.92] there's a lot of caveats in there perhaps clicking through this this horrible website i've found the | |
| [1112.92 --> 1119.10] methodology and it looks kind of skewed towards academia just for what it's worth well it is i | |
| [1119.10 --> 1123.62] triple e spectrum so that that would make some sense because their audience is more formalized and | |
| [1123.62 --> 1132.62] academic some major proportion of the the very few sources that they use are in academia so | |
| [1132.62 --> 1140.62] rounding out the top 10 you have sql not a language it's a language the l stands for language | |
| [1140.62 --> 1148.52] but is it a programming language is sql turing complete it probably is uh is it a programming | |
| [1148.52 --> 1156.62] language it's kind of not it's a declarative query language but whatever followed by c sharp go | |
| [1156.62 --> 1166.36] good old-fashioned c and then hey html baby it's official html is a programming language even the | |
| [1166.36 --> 1175.04] academics will confess it i won't argue with that i will with sql my wife has to do sql for her job | |
| [1175.04 --> 1181.02] yeah and i'm always like oh you should learn more programming and she's like no i hate it because i hate | |
| [1181.02 --> 1191.52] sql i'm like don't base it on sql right have you introduced her to llama 3.1 uh no because i don't | |
| [1191.52 --> 1197.54] really write sql anymore i write plain english sql that gets turned into actual sql and that's been | |
| [1197.54 --> 1202.14] pretty nice that's been a life improvement for me i mean that's what llms have done in my life is like | |
| [1202.14 --> 1207.90] you know copy paste sql you know you don't actually author it directly which has been an improvement | |
| [1207.90 --> 1214.10] because i use it all the time but just you know is it an inner join is it a left outer join how do i | |
| [1214.10 --> 1220.52] you know like gosh who has time for that not me but i do have time to say here's what i'm looking at | |
| [1220.52 --> 1224.46] and then i get a query that's close enough and then you can tweak it from there so maybe she would | |
| [1224.46 --> 1233.84] benefit from that hey jord are you an elixir guy yes it's 35th ouch well you know that's academia | |
| [1233.84 --> 1239.00] they don't know what they're doing just kidding it's beaten out by assembly more people writing | |
| [1239.00 --> 1250.48] raw assembly than they're writing elixir that's kind of embarrassing well i'm sorry oh gosh yeah | |
| [1250.48 --> 1256.76] well it's not the most popular language but it doesn't make it bad what's abap sounds like a | |
| [1256.76 --> 1263.60] acronym does anybody know what that means that is what a b a p a b a p i've never heard of that | |
| [1263.60 --> 1268.74] in my life and i've heard almost every tech acronym there is advanced business application | |
| [1268.74 --> 1278.34] programming according to claude ah okay this looks like a sap thing oh okay yeah i think this survey | |
| [1278.34 --> 1287.52] is invalid i think you've proven it i mean you know if people do this for a living then i think it | |
| [1287.52 --> 1296.70] counts mac helps put food on the table you know i had my first encounter with uh with django a few | |
| [1296.70 --> 1301.54] months ago oh really which was my first encounter with python for the most part aside from arduino | |
| [1301.54 --> 1308.02] like simple arduino stuff and i was like trying to get it running and upgrade things and i'm like how | |
| [1308.02 --> 1313.56] the heck are dependencies managed in this do you know where they put dependencies in python | |
| [1313.56 --> 1321.60] requirements.txt requirements.txt yes i i felt like i was blown away i'm like you're so disappointed | |
| [1321.60 --> 1328.54] yeah don't you like text files nick i mean you know json files are just text files with a different | |
| [1328.54 --> 1335.30] file extension no but my editor knows how to syntax highlighted json file i bet it knows how to do | |
| [1335.30 --> 1341.64] requirements.txt too not mine okay well you gotta install the python extension or something | |
| [1341.64 --> 1347.26] the syntax yeah i that i always thought that was uh what's the word i don't know rudimentary or | |
| [1347.26 --> 1353.80] it's probably from the late 90s yeah oh that's been around forever yeah yeah that's how chris and i | |
| [1353.80 --> 1359.58] both knew it and and every every year somebody comes up with a new way to do package management | |
| [1359.58 --> 1366.46] in python yes i've had lots of conversations about package management in python and i've been told by | |
| [1366.46 --> 1371.50] brett cannon who's the our closest friend who does python he used to be on the steering council or | |
| [1371.50 --> 1377.66] whatever that pipx is the way to go so after he told me that i just quit wondering what to do and | |
| [1377.66 --> 1382.16] like i use pipx all the time not because it's best but because brett cannon told me it's the way to go | |
| [1382.16 --> 1388.42] so that was just good for me wait what's pipx he didn't tell me that part | |
| [1388.42 --> 1398.80] pipx is a a version a package installer like pip which is the was a python package installer that you | |
| [1398.80 --> 1404.80] probably know of only it installs everything locally and so it's all siloed and stuff and not | |
| [1404.80 --> 1409.86] like system wide and so it's a nice way of just like because a lot of times when you're installing | |
| [1409.86 --> 1414.36] python stuff you're not really writing python i mean i'm not i'm just like i want to use this tool | |
| [1414.36 --> 1418.82] that happens to be written in python and so i want to install it on my system i don't want to like | |
| [1418.82 --> 1424.50] screw up whatever apple's doing with python on my system i just feel like if you install it | |
| [1424.50 --> 1429.50] the pip way you're just like blowing your user local away or you're just like i don't know i'm | |
| [1429.50 --> 1434.90] gonna break something that apple doesn't want me to break but pipx is like put it all in your own | |
| [1434.90 --> 1439.48] little i think it's your home directory or something you know let let homebrew deal with it if you just | |
| [1439.48 --> 1444.82] need to use like a python script a lot of python scripts you can't just brew install if if they're | |
| [1444.82 --> 1451.80] good you should be able to it's like the brew install python dash whatever it is | |
| [1451.80 --> 1457.10] brew install python dash no no no no no that's that's the name the name of the package we'll | |
| [1457.10 --> 1463.06] just start with gotcha i will go on record to say that probably five tools that i've tried to | |
| [1463.06 --> 1468.18] install this year mostly around trying to use language models and whisper and stuff like this | |
| [1468.18 --> 1474.20] for transcriptions have not had brew install they've all just been like pip install and i just | |
| [1474.20 --> 1480.00] i get nervous and i'd like wild west yeah well the python's packaging story has never been solid | |
| [1480.00 --> 1486.52] hence requirements.txt good language though nick did you enjoy your time with white space significance | |
| [1486.52 --> 1493.48] why would anybody do that give me those sweet curly braces the sweet embrace it's cleaner dude you just | |
| [1493.48 --> 1497.64] indent you're gonna indent anyways i know why not just make the indent matter | |
| [1497.64 --> 1504.08] it's a good question my eyes just don't scan after using curly braces for | |
| [1504.08 --> 1509.94] every every other year of my life my programming years don't you use tabs though i don't i don't | |
| [1509.94 --> 1515.54] even know any personally don't you use tabs over spaces whatever prettier changes it too i don't even | |
| [1515.54 --> 1520.38] care anymore okay well the reason i ask that is because you can make those tabs real big yeah | |
| [1520.38 --> 1526.34] and that indentation is real significant i actually used to show significant white space like yeah in my | |
| [1526.34 --> 1533.06] like i'd had invisible characters displayed for tabs and spaces and all that sure and after just like | |
| [1533.06 --> 1537.88] becoming so comfortable with with prettier just rewriting everything i was like why do i even care | |
| [1537.88 --> 1541.88] why do i need to see this anymore because if i accidentally type a tab it's going to go away | |
| [1541.88 --> 1550.02] as soon as i save so sure i think that's fair but not in python not in yaml not in lua etc etc etc | |
| [1550.02 --> 1555.60] etc lua is a language that i really like that i guess doesn't have curly braces as much | |
| [1555.60 --> 1562.66] dude lua lua is indexed by one yeah so i have a hard time even just a just even giving it the | |
| [1562.66 --> 1569.94] time of day but i mean who indexes their arrays by in by one literally just lua when like in in | |
| [1569.94 --> 1576.48] today's world where i'm not like you're way less inclined in any other language to write a for loop | |
| [1576.48 --> 1582.34] i i would say would you agree uh in what language no in any language to write a for loop | |
| [1582.34 --> 1588.08] wouldn't you use like a for each method or a some other iterator method or or have you ever | |
| [1588.08 --> 1593.66] written go it's all for loops goes entirely for loops they have no other iteration techniques | |
| [1593.66 --> 1595.14] that's why i haven't written go | |
| [1595.14 --> 1603.98] i use for loops in elixir there's also there's all kinds of iterators but every once in a while like | |
| [1603.98 --> 1608.26] the for loop is actually pretty functional but you don't actually have index references there either | |
| [1608.26 --> 1612.54] so you can if you want them yeah but it's a different kind of for loop it's not like a | |
| [1612.54 --> 1618.50] zero index for loop c c plus plus i mean come on man aren't you polyglot you ever writing anything | |
| [1618.50 --> 1626.22] besides typescript i'm writing php now but my point is zero indexed yeah but my point is i don't care | |
| [1626.22 --> 1630.92] about the zero index i never am like you don't do for loops trying to get at the zeroth index i'll get | |
| [1630.92 --> 1637.22] i'll like push or pop or what is it unshift or like you use some method to get at it | |
| [1637.22 --> 1643.16] unshift isn't that destructive yes no don't ever do that dude you're gonna totally regret that move | |
| [1643.16 --> 1650.88] immutable mutations no i'm kidding i'm kidding immutability please i don't want to mutate my | |
| [1650.88 --> 1655.12] that was my problem with ruby is there are so many different ways to mutate the current thing that i | |
| [1655.12 --> 1660.30] i did it on accident a bunch you know and i'm like oh crap just just monkey patch a new way to do it and | |
| [1660.30 --> 1666.04] then exactly ruby is the best programming language if you don't need to show this code to anybody | |
| [1666.04 --> 1671.68] because you can just monkey patch like the core objects and have all very nice utilities for | |
| [1671.68 --> 1675.28] yourself and like just don't ever share that because no one's gonna know how it's working but | |
| [1675.28 --> 1682.26] it's very malleable and makes writing like stuff very enjoyable as long as it's not to be | |
| [1682.26 --> 1687.98] collaborated on everything's just in method missing right well you can definitely do that too yeah i think | |
| [1687.98 --> 1694.40] nick is right about lua at least i i've written a fair amount of lua and have never worried about that | |
| [1694.40 --> 1700.06] like i don't worry about the index about the one index no no you never for you never do a for loop | |
| [1700.06 --> 1705.48] and then you had to start with one no i don't use a for loop they have like okay some i can't think of | |
| [1705.48 --> 1710.78] the syntax off the top of my head but like there's there's some method or some like language construct | |
| [1710.78 --> 1717.44] to just like loop through everything without me having to explicitly get access to the nth index of | |
| [1717.44 --> 1723.92] the object or of the table to to get at something like it'll just give me you know an iterator to to | |
| [1723.92 --> 1729.58] go through it so you're saying it's inconsequential yes and i'm saying why they do it then what's the | |
| [1729.58 --> 1736.10] point like why don't you just conform to the other languages man that's that's true i guess i'm actually | |
| [1736.10 --> 1740.28] i mean i've i've heard great things about lua never written any lua i just like to make fun of it | |
| [1740.28 --> 1746.48] because of that but it's a came over to it because of neo vim and i like i really like it for that and | |
| [1746.48 --> 1751.50] now i use it for a bunch of other things i started is it just is it configuring neo vim or is it like | |
| [1751.50 --> 1758.16] extending it configuring it yep so you probably don't do very much looping there anyways i do | |
| [1758.16 --> 1763.54] actually like what would you loop over in your config i have like oh all your plugins | |
| [1763.54 --> 1771.46] yeah for each plugin i would install it but then it's like looping through things like uh | |
| [1771.46 --> 1777.06] looping through like the set of language servers that i want to set up and doing specific things | |
| [1777.06 --> 1781.62] for specific ones or you know things like that so it's like an array and the array is only just | |
| [1781.62 --> 1785.66] typescript and it just loops over it it's like sets up the typescript server and you're done pretty | |
| [1785.66 --> 1793.34] much pretty much all right fair enough moving on now that we've covered languages that aren't web | |
| [1793.34 --> 1797.88] development languages although i'm sure you can run all those language in a web browser | |
| [1797.88 --> 1804.36] via wasm or some other technique transpilation of course we don't have to do that we have pretty | |
| [1804.36 --> 1809.28] good languages in our browsers now actually i was i was trying to remember but that lua stuff and | |
| [1809.28 --> 1817.24] then i remembered oh i stopped using lua because i kind of hated it and what i what i ended up doing | |
| [1817.24 --> 1823.32] instead was using this thing called moon script which is like coffee script for lua oh wow | |
| [1823.32 --> 1828.72] yeah so you're drinking it yeah you're putting some uh moon script additional stuff in your lua | |
| [1828.72 --> 1833.90] moon script huh moon script and you hated moon script or you hated lua so you went for moon script | |
| [1833.90 --> 1839.92] i didn't like lua it's a little too uh i don't know they they they don't use like many sigils | |
| [1839.92 --> 1847.58] you know what i mean they don't use like curlies or braces so much it's uh it can be kind of verbose | |
| [1847.58 --> 1854.44] i got type sick of typing function essentially the word function the word function and so moon | |
| [1854.44 --> 1859.30] script stops that from happening moon script i still write out the word function when i'm writing | |
| [1859.30 --> 1866.28] javascript my mouth is agape right now it is agape for our listeners it's just you know i'm old and | |
| [1866.28 --> 1871.42] i've been writing function for 20 years i'm just gonna keep writing it now there are times where i need | |
| [1871.42 --> 1877.20] the facilities of the fat arrow and so i'll use that function style like the closures and stuff but | |
| [1877.20 --> 1884.98] i just write function so in lua it looks like four key uh comma value in something or other and that's | |
| [1884.98 --> 1890.54] your that's your iterator four key comma value and that key starts with one yeah well it's a | |
| [1890.54 --> 1895.28] you're you're in for a hash you don't need to use it's all tables it's all yeah it's all tables | |
| [1895.28 --> 1903.72] okay it's the holy sas ben i'm looking at this moon script and you really this is way more | |
| [1903.72 --> 1908.82] significant white space you must like significant white space chris but it has it has like arrow | |
| [1908.82 --> 1915.44] functions so i was like more comfortable what were you writing this for oh god satisfactory plugins | |
| [1915.44 --> 1923.36] what's satisfactory plugins are like good enough like mods like it's like plugins for a satisfactory mod | |
| [1923.36 --> 1930.44] written in their lua but i use moon script anyway but and i've written stuff for like compute | |
| [1930.44 --> 1934.78] computer do you know what satisfactory is and i'm ignorant or are we both in the dark here | |
| [1934.78 --> 1941.22] what's satisfactory chris satisfactory is a factory building game um like factorio and you automate | |
| [1941.22 --> 1948.14] things but there are there's a modding scene of course and it gets all sure complex if you like | |
| [1948.14 --> 1952.28] that sort of thing yeah lua really has its niche in like game embeddable game | |
| [1952.28 --> 1959.12] yeah i've written lua stuff for computer craft or open computers and minecraft as well | |
| [1959.12 --> 1965.34] minecraft scripting api nowadays javascript baby it's all javascript i know that because i i just | |
| [1965.34 --> 1969.84] interviewed the it's both written in javascript and you can use javascript of course there's other | |
| [1969.84 --> 1977.44] languages as well wait what the mine script the minecraft api the scripting api mine script | |
| [1977.44 --> 1981.86] minecraft you know the game minecraft is that what you said minecraft that's what i was talking about | |
| [1981.86 --> 1988.00] minecraft it's all javascript now what are you talking about minecraft the scripting api okay | |
| [1988.00 --> 1996.68] minecraft is written in java and it's also rewritten in c plus plus right 100 the minecraft scripting | |
| [1996.68 --> 2002.32] api like all the modding stuff that you can do inside of minecraft is javascript oh right i just | |
| [2002.32 --> 2007.10] interviewed the two guys that run the show over there oh yeah yeah yeah and you can use javascript | |
| [2007.10 --> 2013.96] it's not no you can use javascript to write mine script minecraft mods but some people do some people | |
| [2013.96 --> 2019.64] don't 100 i'm just saying you don't need to use lua anymore or or moon script well you do if you want | |
| [2019.64 --> 2027.86] to write programs for computer craft i'm talking about minecraft computer craft is a minecraft mod | |
| [2027.86 --> 2034.56] written in i don't care because it doesn't matter to me but it it provides like an operating system | |
| [2034.56 --> 2042.18] and all the code you write is lua okay that's what that's the kind of minecraft scripting you like to | |
| [2042.18 --> 2047.90] do is computer craft so is this a is this you install minecraft and then you mod it with computer | |
| [2047.90 --> 2053.58] craft and then you mod computer craft with lua yes okay but to solve all of your problems there is a | |
| [2053.58 --> 2064.82] typescript to lua compiler bam nick wins again and maybe somebody's written some lua for computer | |
| [2064.82 --> 2070.50] craft that transpire like you can write javascript to write computer craft code i'd probably somebody | |
| [2070.50 --> 2077.16] has done this if a typescript to lua converter exists then then certainly it's possible and and i | |
| [2077.16 --> 2082.08] didn't know that and so now i'm going to go back to my moon script and rewrite it in typescript bam i | |
| [2082.08 --> 2086.06] support this so nick really just made your days i mean this made it all worthwhile for you to show | |
| [2086.06 --> 2093.96] up for this particular show because now you can just ditch moon script forever i feel like everybody's | |
| [2093.96 --> 2100.78] ditched moon script i've never heard of moon script but i'm looking at the syntax and i like | |
| [2100.78 --> 2105.10] significant white space this looks like a nice little language you would yeah it's just kind of | |
| [2105.10 --> 2110.44] like coffee script yeah and i liked coffee script as well i thought it was very energizing | |
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| [2178.24 --> 2190.50] okay let's talk more node chris you had thoughts on all right nodes test runner please open up this conversation | |
| [2190.50 --> 2199.20] so that's that's when this was announced i was like this is a bad idea because what's the idea the idea of node | |
| [2199.20 --> 2208.40] putting a test runner in itself uh i having experience uh maintaining a test runner there's all these edge cases | |
| [2208.40 --> 2215.38] and terrible things and it's it's not it's not the easiest egg to crack right and so i was kind of concerned | |
| [2215.38 --> 2221.86] about the the maintenance burden but and i don't know if that's ever going to be a problem or not | |
| [2221.86 --> 2229.68] um certainly the the people who know what those edge cases are if it's going to be anybody it's going | |
| [2229.68 --> 2234.80] to be those who work on node core and so i think they're well suited to handling some of those things | |
| [2234.80 --> 2244.76] but i picked it up recently and to to write some tests instead of mocha and um i was i was happy with | |
| [2244.76 --> 2253.14] it it's um you know it's not so restrictive in that you you with some test runners they don't give | |
| [2253.14 --> 2259.26] you test suites you you only get tests and they they don't give you they discourage hooks or whatever | |
| [2259.26 --> 2265.06] and but you get all that stuff in in nodes test runner and that was really all i needed and so um | |
| [2265.06 --> 2272.28] yeah it works great works great with uh i i haven't tried the new typescript stripping thing | |
| [2272.28 --> 2280.84] with it but like if if you use something like tsx no problem you can combine it with a like c8 or | |
| [2280.84 --> 2285.04] something to get your coverage you know much like mocha it doesn't have a lot of bells and whistles | |
| [2285.04 --> 2294.92] however node i think 20 20 or 22 i think i think it arrived in 18 i may be wrong anyway one of the it | |
| [2294.92 --> 2301.70] was either 20 or 22 added some mocks and spies and stuff there's like a mocking api now and that works | |
| [2301.70 --> 2306.90] pretty well and that was one of the things that was kind of missing and so wait yeah i'm happy with | |
| [2306.90 --> 2312.86] that that's just like in node native wow yeah yeah there's like a whole mocking api now does it work | |
| [2312.86 --> 2320.40] with esm in like being able to mock like like other modules like that was one thing that that node that | |
| [2320.40 --> 2325.90] i was wondering like you know it's been so long i'm trying to like remember but there was do you know | |
| [2325.90 --> 2332.88] what i'm gonna say no okay but it's it's actually pretty easy to do that nowadays um you can you can | |
| [2332.88 --> 2342.38] register a a loader on the fly and have it do those things okay so there it's it's a it's a different | |
| [2342.38 --> 2350.34] separate system but yeah you can do that sort of thing i haven't needed to yet and i can report back | |
| [2350.34 --> 2356.46] uh if i ever do which i'm sure i will eventually but yeah the mocking mocking stuff works great | |
| [2356.46 --> 2363.08] assert is still assert which is not super but you know there are other assertion libraries out there | |
| [2363.08 --> 2370.04] too and yeah i'm pleased with it i'm happy it's there um you know the more adoption it gets the more | |
| [2370.04 --> 2376.04] terrible things that people are going to try to do with it and so who knows who knows if that's going | |
| [2376.04 --> 2382.10] to become an issue later but for now i'm really happy with it works great and kudos to colin and | |
| [2382.10 --> 2389.72] the rest who have been working on i think uh rafael or something too but um yeah happy with that | |
| [2389.72 --> 2397.14] nodes test runner cool related discussion that we got cable's opinion on recently and i love your | |
| [2397.14 --> 2403.94] opinion chris kind of going up a level what belongs in node and what doesn't like what is your particular | |
| [2403.94 --> 2412.28] opinion on shoving a bunch of stuff into node versus keeping that relatively slim and allowing | |
| [2412.28 --> 2417.42] third-party developers to innovate etc like do you have a strong opinions one or the other on | |
| [2417.42 --> 2424.30] where things belong inside of something like node i know what goes too far like the python standard | |
| [2424.30 --> 2431.44] library had something like an itunes module built into it and that goes too far right yeah but i'm not | |
| [2431.44 --> 2438.20] i'm not like a a small core advocate necessarily i'm i'm an advocate for whatever you know people | |
| [2438.20 --> 2444.00] commonly do that it would be it would make sense to do out of the box and um you know over the past | |
| [2444.00 --> 2452.44] couple years i think the that sentiment is kind of become more popular and we've seen additions of | |
| [2452.44 --> 2460.10] things that you know the team five years ago wouldn't have considered adding right and so i'm i'm happy with | |
| [2460.10 --> 2465.40] the direction and yeah i think it's uh i think it's good i think there's you know there's globbing | |
| [2465.40 --> 2472.12] in the core now so yeah you know so the stuff like that gotta have globbing i say that seriously | |
| [2472.12 --> 2477.54] yeah i'm generally the same like i haven't been i probably been tracking nodes progress more in the | |
| [2477.54 --> 2484.26] last two years than ever in my life and generally like almost all the decisions i see them making i'm like | |
| [2484.26 --> 2489.64] yeah good decision like i feel like they're making sound choices and i feel like it's really | |
| [2489.64 --> 2498.30] like steady progress over the last 18-24 months so i tend to agree with you yeah and you know and | |
| [2498.30 --> 2505.68] maybe some of that has to do with competition from from dino and bun but regardless uh you know | |
| [2505.68 --> 2511.86] they're doing a good job yeah by the way dino too right around the corner and ryan doll right around | |
| [2511.86 --> 2517.52] the corner on js party as well we'll be getting them back on around the launch of dino 2 which i | |
| [2517.52 --> 2524.48] think is september late september anyways let's close up unless nick did you have anything to say | |
| [2524.48 --> 2529.06] about node test runner or anything that chris just said so this was written from scratch i'm just | |
| [2529.06 --> 2534.84] curious like you know you have you have experience with uh mocha obviously like would there ever been | |
| [2534.84 --> 2540.54] precedent to just like slurp up something like mocha and make it a first class thing no it was i mean it | |
| [2540.54 --> 2549.06] was from scratch and i i think uh nothing uh really fulfilled the requirements i think that that | |
| [2549.06 --> 2557.78] they wanted um it was either like too much or not enough or or it was mocha was too much or it was | |
| [2557.78 --> 2566.74] janky uh so you know too janky yeah so you know it makes sense to it would not make sense to pull a | |
| [2566.74 --> 2573.46] mocha into core now because yeah you don't want to do that but there are you know it wouldn't | |
| [2573.46 --> 2578.92] necessarily make sense to pull i don't know most most of the test runners nowadays are gonna have | |
| [2578.92 --> 2585.00] all those bells and whistles and out of the box and and no test trigger doesn't have those things and | |
| [2585.00 --> 2592.68] similarly to mocha um but uh yeah so yeah they did write it i i don't think i don't think anything | |
| [2592.68 --> 2598.94] out there was suitable to pull in just speaking from speculation my opinion yeah sure that's awesome | |
| [2598.94 --> 2603.92] like like you said things like this you know what especially when i want to do like something quick | |
| [2603.92 --> 2609.80] and one-off having to like i don't know there's just like a mental barrier to having to add something | |
| [2609.80 --> 2614.92] else and then configure that and then go whereas like if it's just built in it's like oh there's no | |
| [2614.92 --> 2621.40] barrier i can just write my tests in this case or glob i can glob without having to jump through a bunch | |
| [2621.40 --> 2628.84] of hoops for that that's really no config file no config file that's nice very very nice well let's | |
| [2628.84 --> 2636.86] finish up this episode on a musical note one thing i've always loved is the cross-section of software | |
| [2636.86 --> 2645.60] development and culture whether it's music movies video games art we featured all kinds of things over | |
| [2645.60 --> 2654.84] the years on our shows maybe you recall nested loops a javascript band from back in the day that | |
| [2654.84 --> 2661.36] would rap over js generated beats and we had them on the show and featured some of their music of course | |
| [2661.36 --> 2669.48] i've done features of standard out the rapper who's a software development rapper uh probably the only one | |
| [2669.48 --> 2677.76] on earth who has some actually really good music and most recently i found out about the tc39 song | |
| [2677.76 --> 2684.76] this comes by way of bruce lawson who works at the vivaldi browser which chris you're rocking vivaldi | |
| [2684.76 --> 2691.22] today huh yeah are you a fan of this browser yes good good browser what do you like about it it has | |
| [2691.22 --> 2698.92] some fancy things and it it's not like it doesn't slurp data like chrome and yeah yeah i like it | |
| [2698.92 --> 2704.82] very cool so you have bone skulls endorsement of vivaldi bruce works there and he recently traveled to | |
| [2704.82 --> 2712.80] amsterdam earlier this summer to help mcjs nation conference out there and uh he says on his blog | |
| [2712.80 --> 2720.40] naturally the open ceremony required a js pop group which is a sub-genre of k-pop which is a sub-genre | |
| [2720.40 --> 2727.04] of pop and uh they did a apparently a carefully choreographed dance routine and they lip synced | |
| [2727.04 --> 2732.14] the song and he's got some pictures on his blog post which we'll link up as well but they have an | |
| [2732.14 --> 2740.72] original song uh that he wrote can we hear the song yes is that too much setup for you yes gosh | |
| [2740.72 --> 2745.84] you're curmudgeon all right here's the song by bruce lawson tc39 song chris | |
| [2745.84 --> 2760.92] i get so excited writing javascript i'm pretty easy going but now i use strict | |
| [2760.92 --> 2768.60] when i first began i was in callback hell then i met you and now it all goes well | |
| [2768.60 --> 2777.74] i love you when my tests pass meet me in the moonlight and extend my class you always keep | |
| [2777.74 --> 2784.76] your promises from the start now you've shot your bat arrow straight to my heart | |
| [2784.76 --> 2794.98] oh tc39 i'm so glad you're mine say you will be with me till the end of time oh tc39 | |
| [2794.98 --> 2800.78] you're so sublime your specs are the best my tc39 | |
| [2800.78 --> 2809.42] all right so shout out to bruce there you have it check out vivaldi check out brucelawson.co.uk | |
| [2809.42 --> 2816.90] we'll link it up and uh let him know if you like the tc39 song all right that is our show for today | |
| [2816.90 --> 2820.22] any final words chris no nick | |
| [2820.22 --> 2828.80] i feel like this is becoming a new routine you do i'm not sure if we need to form yeah put you on | |
| [2828.80 --> 2834.06] the spot and then you crumble that's kind of our thing recently it's very easy yeah it's easy for | |
| [2834.06 --> 2840.64] you it's easy for me as well all right thanks for hanging out on behalf of nick nisi and christopher | |
| [2840.64 --> 2847.34] bone skull hitler and jsparty i'm jared and we will talk to you all next week | |
| [2847.34 --> 2871.06] thanks for listening to jsparty we love that you choose to spend time with us each week if you want | |
| [2871.06 --> 2877.10] some free stickers now's your time to act during the month of september i'm trading change logs sticker | |
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| [2892.16 --> 2898.56] with your mailing address what are you waiting for an engraved invitation next up on the pod cable and | |
| [2898.56 --> 2904.90] myself sit down with chris shank to explore how tools can help us learn create and think better | |
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